Elijah Mohammad
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Oct-14-2005
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Message #113242 posted by Elijah Mohammad (Info) March 12, 2008 16:42:31 ET
In Reply to: Re: Should Islam be blamed for 'barbaric' acts? posted by Torog (Info) March 12, 2008 05:32:23 ET
Before I begin answering your questions and addressing your points, Torog, I would like to ask a very important question.....the title of this post is "Should Islam be blamed for 'barbaric' acts." Well, maybe two questions...the first being...
1. What is your definition of Islam, and why should we all agree to such a definition?
2. What "barbaric acts" are there that are being committed anywhere that are supported by the Quran? (Please give chapter and verses)
On to your points.....
"Howdy Elijah,
"According to me.." ? Of course dropping bombs on people is somewhat barbaric,such is the nature of war..have you forgotten that we were attacked by an extremely barbaric,act of war ? I don't see America defending herself against an extremely barbaric enemy-as being barbaric..it is what it is-self-defense."
Hmmmm, I thought self defense is when you kill only guilty people who are trying to harm you or others. Bombing routinely kills innocent people. So, then, is it your position that killing innocent people along with the guilty is a right thing to do, or acceptable? This is the idea that seems to come across to me from your posts over and over and over, and I would like a clear yes or no answer if at all possible, so that we know where we both stand. My answer to my own question is "NO." It is never right for a human being to kill innocent human beings along with the guilty, no matter what the justification. It is never right to use methods of going after the guilty that are very dangerous to innocent people in their vicinity. The only justification anyone ever comes up with is so that we can save lives of our own soldiers by bombing from miles away from the danger. How is it justifiable to accept the risk and strong probability of killing innocent people to get to the guilty, simply to preserve your own life? I thought that the point of being a soldier is that you could easily die defending others? If soldiers are no longer willing to die to save innocent people, then what's the point of the occupation??? Other than to bully innocent people around, and take resources by force?
"Just because America identifies it's self as Christian,does not mean that the Christians are responsible for every barbaric act commited in our country-most Christians are opposed to abortion for example,and porn and sodomy and everything that you listed."
I could give that same answer about Muslims in Muslim lands, Torog. Abominations like those committed of which we are speaking are opposed by true Muslims. They are also opposed by true Christians. If America is a Christian nation, then how can this be? The majority of people in America self-identify as Christians....yet, they continue allowing these atrocities....why? Is there something in the Bible, or in the other religious writings of Americans that instructs that these abominations are good or permissible? I know that in the Muslim lands, a lot of their unjust and brutal laws are because of Hadiths that they believe in. The Quran speaks against Hadiths which go against its message. I can see how the Muslims can stray, because of the promotion of false Hadiths as scripture.....how do Christians go astray based on their scriptures? I could tell you, but that would ruin the independent thought of your own answer. Every group, almost uniformly, goes astray based on one thing....extra-scriptural traditions of men, which end up superseding, and taking the place of the scriptures....such as the Talmud and Kabballah for Jews, the Hadith and Sunnah for Muslims, and the denominational doctrines, and non-Christian Greco-Roman political ideologies of Christians. If all these people would simply have stuck to the scriptures, the Word of God, throuhout history, there would be far less evil in the world today....the fact is, they haven't. They always go with the traditions of men...this was Jesus's main beef with the politico-religious authorities of his day....and he claimed that those kinds of people would not change, and would be here until God wipes them out with his judgement, and would deceive the majority of people.
"Just a couple of days ago,another torture room was found and I believe,a mass grave..why are such things so commonly found around muslims ?"
Which Muslims are you speaking of here? If you are speaking of those who follow corrupt Hadith, then that is the reason...if you are talking about Saddam Hussein's regime, the answer is a little different. Saddam Hussein was a 33rd degree Freemason....the Freemasons have a long history that goes back to evil Pagans who called themselves Christian....the Knight's Templar. Saddam was a Western puppet who was used as a fall guy. Of course he did evil things...he did not believe in Scriptures (neither Quran, nor Bible)....he believed in the traditions of men. And it is not just Muslims they find these evil things around, it is Christians, Jews, Hindus, Pagans, and Atheists as well. The reason is still the same...rejection of the Prophets and Scriptures (the Word of God) in preference for the traditions of men.
"I believe that yo'doth protest too much",because yer in denial about the extensively documented and fresh,cases of barbarism committed by muslims everyday around the world against non-muslims and muslims alike."
Not really, I just think Atheists, people who call themselves Christians, and Pagans are responsible for more atrocities than people who call themselves Muslims. In any case, I do not believe that true Christians or true Muslims are responsible for these atrocities at all. People following the traditions of men are.
"I posted this article,not to offend you or come up with more reasons to slam muslims,but to engage in honest discussion about the numerous acts of barbarism done in the name of Allah and mohammed and Islam.
Will Islam reform it's self or will we still be hearing of barbaric acts committed by muslims,in the year 3008,if humanity is still alive then ? Will torture,genital mutilation,honor killings,stonings,beheadings,still be an accepted practice for muslims ?"
They are not presently, for true Muslims...just as abortion, warmongering, and sodomy are not for true Christians.
"Just a few months ago,even here in Texas,a suspected honor killing was done by a muslim father of his teenage daughter..is such- one of the 'gifts' that Islam brings ?"
Very sad. He was not a Muslim. The Quran says 50-100 stripes of a beating is for fornicators and adulterers, not killing....and that, only at the testimony of 2-4 witnesses at least.
"The path of peaceful jihad,is alive and well in Indiana,where a second muslim was elected to Congress..if those districts manage to bring sharia laws or wahhabism to the area,will you move there ?"
No, as I am against the corruptions present in many Hadith. If they were bringing Quran laws only, then, I would move there.
"You do realize that if you decided to leave America and move to someplace like Saudia,that you would have to decide which sect yer loyal to-or else risk being declared an infidel,by yer fellow muslims and be subject to a barbaric act of violence ?"
No, I don't realize this. Show me proof.
"I can walk into any Christian church and be accepted and never worry for a moment,that I or my family,would be at risk for physical harm..can you say the same about Islam ?"
I cannot say the same about any place or sect of any religion....including Christianity. Walk into a KKK gathering (they call themselves a Christian church) with a Black or Jewish person, and then repeat your statement there for me. Oh, wait, you can't...no Black or Jewish person in their right mind would walk into a KKK church...Also, what about the many Catholic priests who are child molesters? I would not feel comfortable bringing my child into a Catholic Church....I would worry that he would be at risk of physical harm by the priests because of their religion, where they forbid priests to marry (which the Bible says not to do), and encourage homosexuals into priesthood. But that is their TRADITION OF MEN, once more, not the Scriptures that are the problem here. It is the same with every other religion with the Word of God....I will repeat it again and again....people are corrupted, and do religiously motivated evil only because of the religious TRADITIONS OF MEN, not the Word of God in the Scriptures.
"I feel like I and my fellow roughnecks,were lucky to git out of Saudia with our lives and it's a wonder that they didn't throw us in prison - just for being Christian - we dang sure couldn't bring our Bibles with us,lest we be charged with prosetlyzation-which carries a penalty of death by stoning or beheading..how barbaric is that ?"
I would think they would be more likely to want to kill you because of the long history of people calling themselves Christians, and of Westerners trying to conquer them, and oppress them. Maybe you will thank them for their position if you find that you held an incorrect doctrine at such a point in your life, and were forbidden to mislead others in it...because the Bible agrees with the Quran that those who mislead others into error will face a harsher punishment than those who were simply in error themselves, but did not bring others to join them in it. However, once again, I will remind you, it is not the Quran that instigates killing proselytizers, it is the TRADITIONS OF MEN....which the Roman catholics also held.
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