Elijah Mohammad
Registered on
Oct-14-2005
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Message #113432 posted by Elijah Mohammad (Info) March 20, 2008 06:20:19 ET
In Reply to: god hates babies, but jesus loves them posted by forged registration (Info) March 14, 2008 15:38:48 ET
""This example does not show beyond a reasonable doubt that there were either babies or innocent people present in the destruction...neither are mentioned."
- WTF? there were no babies on earth back then? what did they go? were they launched out of the solar system? without warning, god destroyed the entire earth, every living substance that he made, and all in whose nostrils was the breath of life, and all that was in the dry land...there were definitely innocent babies and children and retards in that lot unless babies and children lived underwater...every living substance includes babies"
You're making biased assumptions about that time. Did you live back then? Did you know the kind of people that were there? Even if you did, this case is not about the full truth of what actually happened back then....it is about what the Bible says happened, and what the Bible claims is God's role in it. According to the Bible, the people that lived in Noah's time were completely corrupt and wicked. They were adulterers, murderers, and all other sorts of vile things. The imaginations of the thoughts of the hearts of the people in those times were "only evil continually." (Genesis 6:5) The only exception being for Noah and his family....they were the only ones to ever even consider righteousness, and disapprove of wickedness. (Genesis 6-7)
Continuing with further proof of the times, according to the Bible.....
"And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day." (Joshua 10:13)
"(Also he bade them teach the children of Judah the use of the bow: behold, it is written in the book of Jasher.)" (2 Samuel 1:18)
So, according to the Bible, on the testimony of two witnesses (examples), the book of Jasher is a historical authority. Let's examine some testimony about the times of the flood from the book of Jasher....
According to the book of Jasher, the men in the times of the flood hated the women who remained fertile, and would not have sexual relations with them, and they loved the women who took birth control, and were infertile. They also practiced abominations like those of the people after them, killing their babies and such....they did not feel the need for babies, as they lived to hundreds of years old back then. Additionally, if there were any babies before the flood (which is very unlikely considering these facts), it is testified that they all would have been caused to pass away by God before the flood. "And all men who walked in the ways of the Lord, died in those days, before the Lord brought the evil upon man which he had declared, for this was from the Lord, that they should not see the evil which the Lord spoke of concerning the sons of men." (Jasher 4:20)
Furthermore, it is testified in the book of Jasher as to exactly who was present outside the ark, and who it was that was to be destroyed by the flood. "And ALL the sons of men that were left upon the earth, became exhausted through evil on account of the rain, for the waters were coming more violently upon the earth, and the animals and beasts were still surrounding the ark. And the sons of men assembled together, about seven hundred thousand MEN and WOMEN
(Elijah's note: No children or babies mentioned), and they came unto Noah to the ark. And they called to Noah, saying, Open for us that we may come to thee in the ark--and wherefore shall we die? And Noah, with a loud voice, answered them from the ark, saying, Have you not all rebelled against the Lord, and said that he does not exist? and therefore the Lord brought upon you this evil, to destroy and cut you off from the face of the earth. (Elijah's note: Do babies say that God does not exist, and rebel against him? Do innocent people?) Is not this the thing that I spoke to you of one hundred twenty years back, and you would not hearken to the voice of the Lord, and now do you desire to live upon earth? (Elijah's note: Are there 120 year old babies?)" (Jasher 6:16-20)
Let me break it down for you....The people were completely corrupt....they killed their babies, the men would only sleep with the women if they were using birth control, they lived hundreds of years, their rulers took their wives by force...they actually had festivals where they would all consentually be swingers. They increased abundantly in violence and killing, they corrupted the natural order of things with genetic engineering, and they denied the existence of God.....even though they lived in times where the Oldest living people were the children and grandchildren of the very first human beings who were in the garden of Eden with God. Before they were to be destroyed, God caused all who were righteous to pass away (which includes babies, as they have done no wrong and are pure). Thus, when the flood destroyed every living substance on earth, there were no babies or innocent people alive who were not safe on the ark with Noah.
""God killing people directly with natural disasters is not the same issue. That issue would be, "Does the Bible support the idea that God creates natural disasters to kill people?"
- god didn't create a natural disaster that killed people by accident...he created the natural disaster to punish people and wipe out the evidence of his fallibility and weakness...god personally killed all those innocent people along with the guilty, preferring instead to reign over a pack of inbred fanatics who would commit genocides in his name as shown in the other examples"
I just showed that God did not kill the innocent with the guilty. According to scripture, the people before the flood would have been just as inbred as the people after, as they all were descended from two people. Besides, the rules of genetics were a little different back then as evidenced by the lifespans close to one thousand years....DNA was obviously more hardy....if you look carefully at the Biblical record, and all records of human history, closeness of kin commonly acceptable to breed with has gotten further and further apart....first, it was Adam with a woman taken directly from his own flesh, bone, and DNA...thereafter, it was brothers and sisters.....after that, cousins and half-siblings....after that, down to just cousins and above.....now, in many places, first cousins is even unacceptable, sometimes any knowledge of any relation would be unacceptable, even 7th cousins.
Additionally, ONCE MORE, THIS CASE IS ABOUT EVIDENCE FOR GOD ORDERING PEOPLE TO KILL OTHER INNOCENT PEOPLE, AND THAT ACTUALLY BEING CARRIED OUT. IT IS NOT ABOUT GOD KILLING PEOPLE DIRECTLY. IF YOU WANT TO DISCUSS THIS IN ANOTHER POST, ONCE AGAIN, WE CAN, THIS POST IS ABOUT SOMETHING DIFFERENT. I WILL LEAVE IT AS THIS, THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A HUMAN BEING TAKING IT UPON THEMSELVES TO KILL SOMEONE THEY KNOW IS INNOCENT, THAT THEY ARE NOT ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN WILL BE IMMEDIATELY RESURRECTED, AND GOD DOING IT, BECAUSE GOD KNOWS EVERYTHING ABOUT THE SITUATION, AND HE ALONE WOULD KNOW WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO THAT PERSON AFTER DEATH....A HUMAN BEING, IN MOST CASES(WITH THE EXCEPTION OF ABRAHAM AND ISAAC) WOULD NOT.
""The same exact issues exist with this example as with your previous one...refer to my answer to that as also the answer to this one."
- god kills all the first born in egypt, sparing not a single household, and you expect me to believe there were no babies/children among the victims of god's barbaric cruelty?
"Prosecution, where does it say that babies were ordered to be killed in this example?"
- right here where god commands moses to slaughter every person among the amorites
21:34 And the LORD said unto Moses, Fear him not: for I have delivered him into thy hand, and all his people, and his land; and thou shalt do to him as thou didst unto Sihon king of the Amorites, which dwelt at Heshbon.
21:35 So they smote him, and his sons, and all his people, until there was none left him alive: and they possessed his land.""
WHAT YOU SEEM TO MISS HERE IS THAT BABIES AND INNOCENT PEOPLE ARE NOT MENTIONED AS BEING PRESENT IN THE POPULATION KILLED...AND THE ONLY THING THAT IS MENTIONED IN REFERENCE TO THEM IS THAT THE PEOPLE THERE ROUTINELY KILLED THEIR BABIES, AND THAT EVERY SINGLE LIVING PERSON THERE THAT WAS KILLED BY THE ISRAELITES WAS GUILTY OF OBSCENE EVIL....THOSE EVILS BEING KILLING OF BABIES, FORNICATION, AND PERVERSE CRUELTY. BUT I ALREADY SAID THAT, AND YOU SEEMED TO IGNORE IT. YOU CAN'T PRESS AN ACCUSATION OF A CRIME OF VICTIMIZATION IN COURT WITHOUT CONCRETE EVIDENCE OF VICTIMS....UNLESS ACTUAL VICTIMS ARE PRODUCED AND SHOWN FOR A FACT TO EXIST, THERE IS NO CASE.
""the word for "little ones" means toddlers and small children....not babies"
- that begs a few questions: how are toddlers and small children guilty?"
IN THE SPECIFIC CASE YOU MENTIONED, IN THE SAME WAY THE ADULTS WERE GUILTY, BY PARTICIPATING IN PERVERSE CRIMES AGAINST BABIES, EXTREME CRUELTY AND MASSIVE FORNICATION. TODDLERS AND SMALL CHILDREN ARE FULLY CAPABLE OF DOING EVIL....BABIES ARE NOT....IF IT IS TESTIFIED BY AN OMNIPOTENT GOD THAT EVERYONE IN THESE PLACES WERE DOING THESE EVIL THINGS, THEN EVERYONE IN THESE PLACES WERE DOING THESE THINGS....
"what does "every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth" mean? what does "utterly destroyed" "all his people" mean? are you calling god a LIAR?"
It means that every substance alive on the face of the earth, except those on the ark would be saved....I wrote a long explanation showing that, according to the testimony of the witnesses in the Bible, it would be impossible for there to have been any babies present for the following reasons:
1. It is testified in the Bible that everyone killed was fully wicked, continuously thinking evil thoughts, and doing evil things.
2. Babies cannot think evil thoughts or do evil things.
3. All the righteous and pure were made to pass away before the flood.
4. Babies are pure.
I don't see what the question, "are you calling God a liar?" has to do with this....please explain yourself prosecution. When did I ever call God a liar? When did we ever proceed with a discussion in this case about what the true and living God actually has said in the past? Oh yeah, near the beginning of the discussion, when I said that I did not think that the entire Bible was the literal word of God. This discussion is about the Bible's testimony about God, not about God's actual true living testimony about himself and his actions.
""The case still stands undecided with the uncorroborated testimony of only one witness (example) that proves the accusations."
- your honour, the defence has called into question the literal word of god, and thus has accused god of lying in this court...if you accept the defences argument, i move to arrest god on charges of perjury"
The defense has not called into question the literal Word of God....the literal Word of God is not what we are discussing here....we are discussing the Bible.
"Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God."
- Jesus Christ, establishing the innocence of 'little ones'"
Actually, he is only establishing the innocence there of little ones who COME TO HIM...killing babies, having sex with cattle, and torturing people IS NOT COMING TO HIM, according to the Bible's testimony.
Prosecution, unless you can bring up some new witnesses/examples that truly testify to God ordering people to kill innocent people and/or babies specifically, I will be forced to throw out this case on insufficient evidence.
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