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America Will Not be Defeated
Torog
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Message #113155 posted by Torog (Info) March 08, 2008 06:00:10 ET


America Will Not be Defeated

Town Hall ^ | 3-7-08 | David Bellavia

America Will Not be Defeated

By David Bellavia

Friday, March 7, 2008

Starting out in the infantry, as with any profession or vocation, you learn basic skills. Every infantryman learns the same standardized plays-called "battle drills"-which are trained and retrained relentlessly. There are nine such drills in the infantry handbook, but battle drill number three always confused me: breaking contact. Essentially breaking contact is when you quit. You run away because the enemy fire is unrelenting and there is no hope to survive. The only way out is to retreat, or leave the terrain as quickly as possible-breaking contact. As it is with all infantry tactics, you can't just run away when being shot at. Infantrymen shoot their way out of most situations, good or bad.

I must have rehearsed the break contact drill thousands of times during my six years in the infantry. Sometimes we practiced the standard base-of-fire leapfrog and sometimes I taught the famous Australian Peel. These are just fancy ways of getting off the battlefield as quickly as possible with the least amount of causalities. We would constantly go over the fundamentals of retreating from battle, almost as much as we trained for knocking out a bunker or the other rudiments of close quarter's battle.

Those long days in the field practicing retreat were probably the only wasted training I received in my beloved Army. There must have been at least 10 times in battle during my time in Iraq when, according to doctrine, we should have broken contact; but we all knew the deal. We used every other battle drill during our time at war almost on a weekly basis. Taking out bunkers, clearing enemy held buildings and even navigating a couple mine fields, but never breaking contact. From the lowest ranking private to the commander of the battalion we understood the unspoken oath:

Infantry soldiers, Marines ... Americans don't break contact.

This just doesn't happen. We fight to win. And hold our ground. No matter the odds or consequences. Those are the lessons taught to us by our brave predecessors of Vietnam, Korea and World Wars I and II.

For as long as I have been associated with the military and veteran organizations I have always been proud of the company I've kept. As easy as it is to say "never quit" you learn to appreciate those near you who actually live their lives by this warrior ethos. And you are deliberately and forever changed by those near you who die by that same warrior ethos.

I helped found the largest group of non-partisan servicemen and women who serve our great nation at a time of war. Vets for Freedom (Vetsforreedom.org) is a group of my peers that continually make me proud of my veteran status. No other Long War veteran's group from my generation holds more valor awards from the field of battle or purple hearts as Vets for Freedom. What we stand for is always in concert with what we fight for.

As the lone ambassadors of America's Warrior Class we feel strongly that, as long as there is a debate taking place on the merits of the conflicts in which we continue to fight and bleed, we will not only participate, we will lead that debate. No one is more qualified or more deserving of that distinction than those brave souls who have continued to re-enlist, tour after tour, to defend our freedoms.

This is the main reason why VetsforFreedom.org has created the nation-wide Heroes Tour. A bus full of notable, decorated veterans will travel from city to city and tell our stories and thank each city's local heroes fresh from battle.

New York Times bestseller and American patriot Marcus Luttrell, who received the Navy Cross and fought the epic fight in the mountains of Afghanistan that would pit his Navy SEALS against 150 Taliban guerrillas, is on board.

Steve Russell, the Bronze Star with valor holder and Task Force Commander responsible for finding the spider hole holding Saddam Hussein will be there. Jeremiah Workman, a Marine awarded the Navy Cross for the 24 insurgents he helped destroy in house fighting in Fallujah will be there too. The list continues on and on-all warriors who are committed to victory and the destruction of the Islamist extremism that threatens us at home.

We continue to defend our sacrifices almost five years to the day since we were sent to war in Iraq. Our brothers and sisters in the Afghanistan conflict are approaching year seven. Still we have partisans and defeatists climbing over themselves to define what it is we fight against and why it is important to leave before victory is achieved.

By railing against the surge, by cheapening the success on the ground today in Iraq, these shameful Moveon.org-controlled senators and representatives have bet against our Warrior Class in America. As members of that fraternity, my peers and I again are pushing back against this infectious defeatism.

In the name of partisan election cycle politics, television commercials and campaign talking points are now openly designed to sap the will of the American people. This is an effort to take from veterans the honorable and attainable victory our beloved friends gave their lives in exchange. Like the Islamist threat overseas, this dogma will be met head on. We cannot allow the selfish advancement of political agendas to transcend the blood sacrifices made in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Bet on this... we will not be defeated.

David Bellavia is co-founder of Vets for Freedom and author of “House to House: A Soldier’s Memoir” (coming to paperback March 18th).


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Re: America Will Not be Defeated
imnother

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Message #113157 posted by imnother (Info) March 08, 2008 08:50:25 ET
In Reply to: America Will Not be Defeated posted by Torog (Info) March 08, 2008 06:00:10 ET

Inspiring and makes me still have faith in our boots on the ground.



Re: America Will Not be Defeated
forged registration

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Message #113159 posted by forged registration (Info) March 08, 2008 17:27:48 ET
In Reply to: America Will Not be Defeated posted by Torog (Info) March 08, 2008 06:00:10 ET

"Americans don't break contact. This just doesn't happen. We fight to win. And hold our ground. No matter the odds or consequences. Those are the lessons taught to us by our brave predecessors of Vietnam..."

- unless my history books are wrong, or this is some new form of english, americans broke contact in vietnam, and abandoned their ground along with their weapons/helicopters/embassy/etc...american troops also retreated from somalia and the iran hostage rescue without achieving their objectives



"In the name of partisan election cycle politics, television commercials and campaign talking points are now openly designed to sap the will of the American people."

- polls show that the will of the american people was sapped before the election cycle...it was sapped by the misrepresentations about iraq's WMD and terrorism...it was sapped by premature announcements about victory and being welcomed as liberators...it was sapped by concentration camps, torture chambers, and kidnapping...it was sapped by the negligent mismanagement of an occupied country...it was sapped by the terrible price in blood and dollars



"shameful Moveon.org-controlled senators and representatives have bet against our Warrior Class in America. As members of that fraternity, my peers and I again are pushing back against this infectious defeatism."

- sounds like the unelected Warrior Class (capitalized?) plans to control the usa by ignoring the history of defeat and the democratic will of the american people...good luck with that!




Re: America Will Not be Defeated
sanclem
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Message #113162 posted by sanclem (Info) March 08, 2008 20:15:34 ET
In Reply to: Re: America Will Not be Defeated posted by forged registration (Info) March 08, 2008 17:27:48 ET

United We Stand
Divided we we fall
If your family does not have a DD 214 , YOUR FULL OF SHIT.
BOTH cases battles were lost by the DAMN bastards of the society liberal sucm sucking bastards.
You can not chase the enemy past a point, screw the point, screw BASTARDS find and distroy, VN Sm were prime cases.
You give the troops guns and say do not go past that point. SCREW that point , find and distroy.
PAVE TAC,SMAWS,MM, TITAN, ETC AND PROUD OF IT.
003 needs to shot the press, and keep on going.




Re: America Will Not be Defeated
forged registration

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Message #113163 posted by forged registration (Info) March 08, 2008 23:49:20 ET
In Reply to: Re: America Will Not be Defeated posted by sanclem (Info) March 08, 2008 20:15:34 ET


my family doesn't have a DD214 because my government didn't fall for your government's lies about vietnam...my family fought in REAL wars: WWI and WWII

america never lost a single battle in vietnam, and maintained a 20-1 kill ratio on the battlefield throughout the whole war...america lost 58,000 of its citizens in vietnam...vietnam lost about 4 million of their citizens...you won the battles but lost the war because the premise for war was FULL OF SHIT

vietnam was lost because, like iraq, the reasons for going into vietnam were paranoid lies...there was no tonkin gulf incident as cited for the reason for the tonkin gulf resolution...commie vietnamese were no threat to the united states, as proved by george bush's recent visit to vietnam...it was a foreign policy hoax on the american people

your suggestion of executing the press would have ended the war sooner because the american public are not that stupid...they saw the coffins...they saw the shell shocked vets in wheelchairs...they saw the terrible price to pay for a fake war in a faraway land to protect americans from ???

united we stand
stupid we fall
yellow rubber sailing boots
IMO LOL SIMON SEZ ETC AND ASHAMED OF IT.





Re: America Will Not be Defeated
LeftyToker

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Message #113164 posted by LeftyToker (Info) March 09, 2008 05:33:57 ET
In Reply to: America Will Not be Defeated posted by Torog (Info) March 08, 2008 06:00:10 ET

..
.I hope no one will be suprized by my critique of this article./?/
..I took the time to read the article, twice.
..and I read it a third time, to consider what David Bellavia was trying to say.
.
..I respect and appreciate people who choose to be emplo yed, and/or deployed
in military service.
.When a person joins the military, they must be trained.
..Submit to authority
..Obey commands.
..Carry out/expidite orders.
.
.. a soldier believes what he/she is told.
.A soldiers intentions are always honorable because they serve their country.
.A soldiers mission is only as honorable as the intentions of the commanders.
..David Bellavia has no conception of why he thinks what he says?
,,(in fact, David Bellavia is probably paid to write these strange items?)
..WHY would David Bellavia write things like:

" As the lone ambassadors of America's Warrior Class.."

...WHAT?..."America's Warrior Class"..Is this a new "class"?
..are we all supposed to know about it?
How many "upper class", are in "America's Warrior Class"?

"...we feel strongly that, as long as there is a debate taking place on the merits of the conflicts in which we continue to fight and bleed, we will not only participate, we will lead that debate. No one is more qualified or more deserving of t h at distinction than those brave souls who have continued to re-enlist, tour after tour, to defend our freedoms."

..I feel strongly,
that as long as you have no questions, or debate concerning the merits or logic of that statement,
and this article,,,you should continue to wave the Chinese made US flag,
and support whatever or anything the 'troops' are doing.

...Bottom Line:
..Aint NO fuckin' question about "supporting the troops"..!
..The troops are not the ones who chose to go where they are at!
...W hy dont we see bumper stickers saying "support the war"
?.,."SUPPORT THE INVASION"...
"SUPPORT THE OCCUPATION".
seriously,
..think about it:
.The honorable intentions of Soldiers is not a valid question!
.Soldiers serve their commanders, and Soldier s ar e not involved
in the decisions, or reasons for the orders they are required
to follow.
Is this article sensible, and logical?.

....then maybe this is too?:
.ˆ¥ç√ˆ¨˜…øˆ≈•©∫ø¬•ºªµ…πˆøæ“ªø≈


ˇ¶∂•¶©ˆ¶¨∆
˜ª•ߪ•¶˙º•ˆ≤˚檺øƒ•ºª∆•µ“–ºª¥©ºªµ˚æ– ªºƒ®º•ªæ ƒ©º•ª ∆ºªæ–ªº∆µ˚“º•ª˙
ππππππ
πππππ𥩨√ ¨†¥ çe



Re: America Will Not be Defeated
dana west

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Message #113165 posted by dana west (Info) March 09, 2008 05:52:50 ET
In Reply to: Re: America Will Not be Defeated posted by forged registration (Info) March 08, 2008 23:49:20 ET

Right on FR!

"your suggestion of executing the press would have ended the war sooner because
the american public are not that stupid...they saw the coffins...they saw the shell
shocked vets in wheelchairs...they saw the terrible price to pay for a fake war in a
faraway land to protect americans from ???

united we stand
stupid we fall
yellow rubber saili ng boots
IMO LOL SIMON SEZ ETC AND ASHAMED OF IT."

"America Will Not be Defeated"

"Hulk will not be defeated.".

Boris and Natasha will never be defeated by Moose and Squirrel!

Magilla Gorilla will never submit to Beany and Cecil.

Atom Ant will win over Secret Squirrel.

Sherman and Mister Peabody got lost in a fractured fairy tale!






Re: America Will Not be Defeated
Torog
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Message #113166 posted by Torog (Info) March 09, 2008 05:55:35 ET
In Reply to: Re: America Will Not be Defeated posted by forged registration (Info) March 08, 2008 17:27:48 ET


Howdy FR,

I'd say that in almost every instance that American troops have been ordered to break contact,it was because the will of the politicians involved,faltered-not because the of the soldier's will.

I'll grant ya that the will and resolve of the American people was sapped,but it was mostly due to the on-going and relentless attacks on their will,by the defeatists of the Left-that such an erosion has even been able to take place.

However,despite the onerous and continueing attack on the will of the American people to prosecute this war on terror,there are many,like me,that still have and always will,a white-hot burning desire to defeat the enemies of freedom..and unlike the defeatists of the Left-we will not be defeated..nor allow America to be defeated.

Have a good one !


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Re: America Will Not be Defeated
LeftyToker

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Message #113167 posted by LeftyToker (Info) March 09, 2008 06:52:37 ET
In Reply to: Re: America Will Not be Defeated posted by Torog (Info) March 09, 2008 05:55:35 ET

Mornin' Torog.

..There ya are..
..using words.
..words like "defeat".
..It's easy to talk, and use words...

"However,despite the onerous and continueing attack on the will of the American people to prosecute this war on terror,there are many,like me,tha t still have and always will,a white-hot burning desire to defeat the enemies of freedom..and unlike the defeatists of the Left-we will not be defeated..nor allow America to be defeated."..

..only problem is, if yer gonna say a bunch of stuff, and use w ords like "defeat",
,,then I hope y'all wont mind if I ask you to define what you are tryin' to say.?
.
.."defeat",..I reckon the opposite of 'defeat' is 'victory'..?
..OK,,so if yer gonna talk about "defeat", you should be able to describe a few detail s about the battle, and what "victory", would entail..?,
.
..in other words,,it aint as simple as "defeat", or "victory", unless the rules and/or criteria for the conflict,(game?), are spelled out...The details are important.

..lucky for you,,, I aint gonna think any less of you for not responding with a specific answer.
.
..all I'm askin', is that you seriously consider the definition of the terms you use.
If you're gonna talk about "defeat", then I hope you can provide a logical definition, and/or explanation of what "victory", would consist of.?

..ahh...come to think of it,,,,dont bother hasslin' with it...
..unless ya want to...
after all:
....you would never allow yourself to be defeated by a leftist defeatist..(lol)

hago
..fª“§¶∫  π ª…•¨
¨√ˆ¨˜øˆ∫©…ø

I'm defeated¨ƒˆ¶˙˜•ƒ©ª•©º•∂≈º•ª“檺•˙ee˙




Re: America Will Not be Defeated
Torog
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Message #113168 posted by Torog (Info) March 09, 2008 07:19:53 ET
In Reply to: Re: America Will Not be Defeated posted by LeftyToker (Info) March 09, 2008 06:52:37 ET


Howdy LeftyToker,

You ask:

"..only problem is, if yer gonna say a bunch of stuff, and use w ords like "defeat",
,,then I hope y'all wont mind if I ask you to define what you are tryin' to say.?"

Fair enough..lol.

Defeat is withdrawal from Iraq before we git-r-done..defeat is lapping up the lies of the enemy,which is nothing less than a stalling tactic to re-group and re-strengthen..defeat is appeasement-in the foolish hope that such will sate the hunger of the wolves..defeat is waiting on moderate muslims to git a handle on their extremeist 'cousins'..defeat is believing in anything that the party of defeat,espouses..is that a good start ? lol

Have a good one !



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Re: America Will Not be Defeated
LeftyToker

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Message #113169 posted by LeftyToker (Info) March 09, 2008 08:47:44 ET
In Reply to: Re: America Will Not be Defeated posted by Torog (Info) March 09, 2008 07:19:53 ET

Mornin' once again T...

"Defeat is withdrawal from Iraq before we git-r-done..defeat is lapping up the lies of the enemy,which is nothing
less than a stalling tactic to re-group and re-strengthen..defeat is appeasement-in the foolish hope that such will sate the hunger of the wolves..defeat is waiting on moderate muslims to git a handle on their extremeist
'cousins'..defeat is believing in anything that the party of defeat,espouses..is that a good start ? lol"

..yup..I reckon that's a good start...
..how 'bout if ya give a summary of what "victory", would look like?..In realistic terms, not yer usual thing of killing all non-christians./?/
...in other words,,do you seriously believe that there is a situation that could be called a; "win"?
..a thousand million muslims submit to the power of a superior christian military, led by true believers like yerself, who know Jesus died for any mistakes or sins incurred by lobbing nuclear bombs that kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people,?, that same god that you know disapproves of killing innocent unborn fetuses?..
..too bad all muslims are not fetuses....then you'd be angry when the innocent got killed/?/...}lol{/?

Have a good one !

ˆ¨ƒ√ˆ…¨˜øˆ∂爥©∫…ø¨ˆddaaoo‰‰




Re: America Will Not be Defeated
1rekoptoms

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Message #113170 posted by 1rekoptoms (Info) March 09, 2008 13:35:40 ET
In Reply to: America Will Not be Defeated posted by Torog (Info) March 08, 2008 06:00:10 ET

TOROG ,
I"m with you and DAMN PROUD of it. I understand where you are coming from and maybe when the terrorists are in the DEFEATISTS backyard planting bombs and sending out suicide killers with vests to kill innocent women and children they know and love they may understand where your coming from too. I wanted to come to this discussion with guns a blazen but I was reading along when I realized that NOTHING I or you(TOROG) say is gonna change certain peoples minds on this .
Don't you realize (David) that there are people out there that believe in the ways of Communist,Leftist, Marcsist,and YES even ISLAMIC EXTREMISTS. There are just too many people out there that don't believe in spreading freedom and trying to bring freedom to oppressed people all over the world.
Anyone can respond to this if you want but as much as I would like EVERYONE in the WORLD to think like I do ( as scary as that sounds) I know that ain't gonna happen EVER. I just wanted to add my 2 cents even though YOU won't see things my way and I won't see things your way.
I realize G.W. Bush isn't a saint and has most likely done some SHADY and UNDERHANDED things(ie; Iran/Contra dealings) but WE haven't been attacked on OUR turf since the towers fell. I'm not Bush's biggest fan but he is NOT El Diablo and has kept Al Quada on the run.
I have given up on alot of my personal freedoms and liberties in order to feel safe at night, and if I have my choice I'll chose to smoke cannabis the way I have for 30 years (under the radar) just keep Al Queda out of my backyard.
I'm just waiting for that electable Presidential candidate that will FIGHT the terrorists and keep them running( better yet DEAD)and let people decide what they put in THIER bodies ie; medical cannabis.
I'll be the first to tell ya I'M DAMN SICK OF ALL POLITICIANS but I AM and WILL ALWAYS BE PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN. I'll get back to the subject at hand .
A Marine Commander had a Town Meeting of sorts for thousands of his troops in IRAQ . In 4 hours of Q and A NOT A SINGLE SOLDIER complained about the fight they were engaged in . Most of the soldiers were concerned with a myriad of other issues ie; HOW TO RE-ENLISTS and EXTEND thier tours to FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT with thier BROTHER and SISTER WARRIORS.I personally served 5 years in the U.S. Army and tried to get back in the service a year after the war started but I was at the time and obviously still am too old. TOO BAD




Re: America Will Not be Defeated
forged registration

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Message #113171 posted by forged registration (Info) March 09, 2008 15:02:33 ET
In Reply to: Re: America Will Not be Defeated posted by Torog (Info) March 09, 2008 05:55:35 ET

"I'd say that in almost every instance that American troops have been ordered to break contact,it was because the will of the politicians involved,faltered-not because the of the soldier's will."

- of course! that is how a democracy works...the politicians make decisions, and the generals give soldiers orders to carry out those decisions...the soldier's will has nothing to do with any of that, nor the generals for that matter...they are entitled to their *privately held* opinions, but not their will...the generals are so spineless that they can't even state their opinion until they retire...so who cares what the warrior class wants? they are tools of democracy...would you ask a hammer to tell you when to beat on nails? what if ambassadors from the hammer class decided to subvert the carpenter's will in favour of its own will? there is no need for carpenters or politicians when the tools do the thinking



"I'll grant ya that the will and resolve of the American people was sapped,but it was mostly due to the on-going and relentless attacks on their will,by the defeatists of the Left-that such an erosion has even been able to take place."

- what relentless attacks? in the first couple of years after the invasion there were hardly any public protests against the war...the so-called liberal media obediently reprinted white house press releases when the bush administration was cooking up a pot of lies about iraq's WMD and links to terrorism before the invasion, and gladly embedded their reporters with the invasion forces (throwing the last shovel of dirt on the corpse of objective journalism)...the checks and balances were checked out and unbalanced when bush did an end run around international law to invade iraq...the erosion took place when people realized that they'd been duped by their government and let down by the media...it was not driven by the media or moveon.org - it was a people's movement borne from the lack of leadership...how come you never hold the commander-guy-in-chief responsible for the erosion of support for his war? he screwed up bad but you blame everything on the left...newsflash: the left isn't in charge of iraq



"However,despite the onerous and continueing attack on the will of the American people to prosecute this war on terror,there are many,like me,that still have and always will,a white-hot burning desire to defeat the enemies of freedom."

- not so fast torog...the invasion of iraq had nothing to do with enemies of freedom...it had something to do with WMD, links to terrorism, and enforcement of UN resolutions...iraq was no threat to us freedoms AT ALL




Re: America Will Not be Defeated
dana west

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Message #113172 posted by dana west (Info) March 09, 2008 15:46:16 ET
In Reply to: Re: America Will Not be Defeated posted by 1rekoptoms (Info) March 09, 2008 13:35:40 ET


"I realize G.W. Bush isn't a saint and has most likely done some SHADY and UNDERHANDED things(ie; Iran/Contra dealings) ."

?..hmm.I missed that,,let me see,,was that just before he invaded Granada?m




Re: America Will Not be Defeated
forged registration

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Message #113174 posted by forged registration (Info) March 09, 2008 20:31:53 ET
In Reply to: Re: America Will Not be Defeated posted by 1rekoptoms (Info) March 09, 2008 13:35:40 ET

"A Marine Commander had a Town Meeting of sorts for thousands of his troops in IRAQ . In 4 hours of Q and A NOT A SINGLE SOLDIER complained about the fight they were engaged in."

- maybe that's because they are not allowed to complain publicly:


Pentagon may punish GIs who spoke out on TV

Robert Collier, Chronicle Staff Writer

Friday, July 18, 2003

(07-18) 04:00 PDT Fallujah, Iraq -- Morale is dipping pretty low among U.S. soldiers as they stew in Iraq's broiling heat, get shot at by an increasingly hostile population and get repeated orders to extend their tours of duty.

Ask any grunt standing guard on a 115-degree day what he or she thinks of the open-ended Iraq occupation, and you'll get an earful of colorful complaints.

But going public isn't always easy, as soldiers of the Army's Second Brigade, Third Infantry Division found out after "Good Morning America" aired their complaints.

The brigade's soldiers received word this week from the Pentagon that it was extending their stay, with a vague promise to send them home by September if the security situation allows. They've been away from home since September, and this week's announcement was the third time their mission has been extended.

It was bad news for the division's 12,000 homesick soldiers, who were at the forefront of the force that overthrew Saddam Hussein's government and moved into Baghdad in early April.

On Wednesday morning, when the ABC news show reported from Fallujah, where the division is based, the troops gave the reporters an earful. One soldier said he felt like he'd been "kicked in the guts, slapped in the face." Another demanded that Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld quit.

The retaliation from Washington was swift.

CAREERS OVER FOR SOME

"It was the end of the world," said one officer Thursday. "It went all the way up to President Bush and back down again on top of us. At least six of us here will lose our careers."

First lesson for the troops, it seemed: Don't ever talk to the media "on the record" -- that is, with your name attached -- unless you're giving the sort of chin-forward, everything's-great message the Pentagon loves to hear.

Only two days before the ABC show, similarly bitter sentiments -- with no names attached -- were voiced in an anonymous e-mail circulating around the Internet, allegedly from "the soldiers of the Second Brigade, Third ID."

"Our morale is not high or even low," the letter said. "Our morale is nonexistent. We have been told twice that we were going home, and twice we have received a 'stop' movement to stay in Iraq."

The message, whose authenticity could not be confirmed, concluded: "Our men and women deserve to be treated like the heroes they are, not like farm animals. Our men and women deserve to see their loved ones again and deserve to come home."

After this one-two punch, it was perhaps natural that on Thursday, the same troops and officers who had been garrulous and outspoken in previous visits were quiet, and most declined to speak on the record. During a visit to Fallujah, a small city about 30 miles west of Baghdad, military officials expressed intense chagrin about the bad publicity. And they slammed the ABC reporters for focusing on the soldiers' criticism of Rumsfeld, Bush and other officials and implying that they are unwilling to carry out their mission.

COMPLAINTS CALLED ROUTINE

"Soldiers have bitched since the beginning of time," said Capt. James Brownlee, the public affairs officer for the Second Brigade. "That's part of being a soldier. They bitch. But what does 'bad morale' really mean? That they're not combat-ready or loyal? Nobody here fits that definition."

The nervousness of the brass has a venerable history. It has long been a practice in American democracy that the military do not criticize the nation's civilian leaders, as Gen. Douglas MacArthur found out in 1951, when he criticized President Harry Truman's Korean War strategy -- and was promptly fired.

Yet several U.S. officers said privately that troop morale is indeed low. "The problem is not the heat," said one high-ranking officer. "Soldiers get used to that. The problem is getting orders to go home, so your wife gets all psyched about it, then getting them reversed, and then having the same process two more times."

In Baghdad, average soldiers from other Army brigades are eager to spill similar complaints.

"I'm not sure people in Washington really know what it's like here," said Corp. Todd Burchard as he stood on a street corner, sweating profusely and looking bored. "We'll keep doing our jobs as best as anyone can, but we shouldn't have to still be here in the first place."

Nearby, Pfc. Jason Ring stood next to his Humvee. "We liberated Iraq. Now the people here don't want us here, and guess what? We don't want to be here either," he said. "So why are we still here? Why don't they bring us home?"




Re: America Will Not be Defeated
Torog
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Message #113177 posted by Torog (Info) March 10, 2008 06:02:53 ET
In Reply to: Re: America Will Not be Defeated posted by 1rekoptoms (Info) March 09, 2008 13:35:40 ET


Howdy 1rekoptoms,

I hear ya-I'll never apologize for being American and none of us should sleep soundly till there's freedom for all--not just a privileged few.

Back when DS1 broke out,I too,tried to git back in and I actually called up the recruiter,but I had to admit to him that I just had back surgery and was still wearing bandages from such..needless to say-that didn't go very far..lol.

Thank you sir-for yer great service to this country and for all of the oppressed folks in the world-that still look to America as that "Shining city on the hill"..their last,best hope to be whatever they want to be.

May God continue to bless America,so that we in turn,can pass on those blessings to others who so desperately need them !

Have a good one !


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Re: America Will Not be Defeated
Torog
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Message #113178 posted by Torog (Info) March 10, 2008 06:04:39 ET
In Reply to: Re: America Will Not be Defeated posted by forged registration (Info) March 09, 2008 20:31:53 ET


Howdy FR,

And yer point is ? This is old news....

Have a good one ...




Git'r done....defenition? Torog....
Elijah Mohammad

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Message #113181 posted by Elijah Mohammad (Info) March 10, 2008 06:45:00 ET
In Reply to: Re: America Will Not be Defeated posted by Torog (Info) March 09, 2008 07:19:53 ET

"Defeat is withdrawal from Iraq before we git-r-done.."


If by "git-r-done," you mean installing "Holy" Roman Empire ideals, how can you justify that Biblically? How is installing a form of governance, condemned by the Prophets uniformly, something good, for one who believes the Prophets, to do?




Re: Git'r done....defenition? Torog....
1rekoptoms

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Message #113183 posted by 1rekoptoms (Info) March 10, 2008 07:23:07 ET
In Reply to: Git'r done....defenition? Torog.... posted by Elijah Mohammad (Info) March 10, 2008 06:45:00 ET

I only want for others what I have here in the U.S.
A messed up government that only listens to "WE THE PEOPLE" when the majority have Bitched long enough and threatened too vote them out of office if they don't comply. But at least here (U.S.)we can publicly bitch about our goverment and its ELECTED LEADERS and even eventually vote them out .

I for ONE know my goverment MISINFORMED me of WMD but I don't give a shit cause a world class ass(SO-DAMN INSANE) is dead and no more MASS GRAVES filled with PEOPLE who did nothing but despise a DICK-tator.

I'm just glad I don't have to worry about where my family members may be one day because I chose to speak out against oppressors everywhere. YES even here in America (oppressors) who are trying to tell me what medications and herbs I can or can not legally put into MY BODY.

My goverment doesn't tell me who to worship and have me killed if I want to worship another GOD. I personally worship MOTHER EARTH and have a huge problem with POLLUTION.

America doesn't kill on religious beliefs , but will throw you in a cage for smoking a harmless plant . I wish neither for myself so I have for years kept mostly quiet for as not to put a bulls-eye on my back for the L.E.O's.
Sorry I'm off subject again.

I'm just glad that everyone on this sight is not being monitored by an oppressive government official waiting to put them in the ground for a few spoken words.




Re: Git'r done....defenition? Torog....
Torog
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Message #113185 posted by Torog (Info) March 10, 2008 07:47:18 ET
In Reply to: Git'r done....defenition? Torog.... posted by Elijah Mohammad (Info) March 10, 2008 06:45:00 ET


Howdy Elijah,

I don't know about "Holy Roman Ideals",I just want the Iraqi's to have a democratically elected goverment that includes represenatives,both male and female,in their ranks that actually represent the people.

I want the Iraqi's to be as blessed and have the same opportunities as we have here in America. I want them to be able to develope their oil fields so that wealth can be re-invested in their infrastructure and raise their quality of life.

Have a good one ...




Re: Git'r done....defenition? Torog....
jon104

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Message #113188 posted by jon104 (Info) March 10, 2008 14:31:42 ET
In Reply to: Re: Git'r done....defenition? Torog.... posted by Torog (Info) March 10, 2008 07:47:18 ET

We should have taken a lesson from WWII and bombed until unconditional surrender, and pursued Osama Bin Laden into Pakistan where he hides openly to this day.

I don't mind a real war on terror, its just the buffoons we have orchestrating this one is ridiculous. They even admit they made alot of mistakes in Iraq to date, better believe Bush isn't Reagan or even a Bush Sr,they were smarter than this Bush.




Re: America Will Not be Defeated
forged registration

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Message #113190 posted by forged registration (Info) March 10, 2008 15:52:41 ET
In Reply to: Re: America Will Not be Defeated posted by Torog (Info) March 10, 2008 06:04:39 ET

2003 is old news? who was president way back then anyway? nobody knows! crushing dissent in the ranks is water under the bridge...we can't look that far back into the mists of time to learn how we ended up in an unpopular fake war...so what if there was no WMD and links to terrorism? we have to deal with the lies bush is telling today: not the lies he told yesteryear or yesterday

BRING EM ON! LETS ROLL!! YEE HAW KILL DEM AYRABS!!!

*ahem*

my point is that the pentagon does not tolerate dissent in the ranks...that is why the pentagon can stage a 240 minute scripted Q&A session without any unpleasant questions...can you imagine any randomized group of americans sitting through a 4 hour Q&A about iraq without raising a few hard questions/complaints?




Re: America Will Not be Defeated
LeftyToker

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Message #113203 posted by LeftyToker (Info) March 11, 2008 07:51:20 ET
In Reply to: Re: America Will Not be Defeated posted by forged registration (Info) March 10, 2008 15:52:41 ET


(...I'm not sure if the following post meets my postability standards,,but I'm gonna post it anyway...why not?]


..forgive me..I've had a rough week.
..I want to tell the unfortunately myopic loudmouths,
,,who talk about "America Will Not be Defeated"
,,that they are right.
NO one can defeat America in a military confrontation.
America could defeat China, (and we may end up having
to nuke them into submission after they start whining about
the 3 trillion $dollars we owe them,,,and/or, they get pissed
of f after some deluded fool nukes Iran/?/),and, America could
defeat Russia too!
..America Will Not be Defeated..!!
..It's true!!
No one can match the superior power of American weapons!
...NO ONE!
...nope..BUT:
..America WILL be defeated.,
but it will no t be from outside..or military destruction...
.America will be defeated from within!.
In fact,,America is already FUCKED, due to the fact that
most peoples attentions have been diverted to a charade threat/?/!!
..I have a message for well intentioned folks like my friend Torog,
and that new person 1r ekoptoms,,,
who feel that America is threatened by Islam, "al-quaeda", etc.
..WAKE UP!...take a look at your country.
..do you think the federal debt will just go away?
..do you think that America can afford t o impose, and enforce "freedom".?
..did you ev en bother to read this far?..
if so, then please consider the FACTS!
..If you love your country, and are concerned about America,
,then why dont you take a look at the grim reality?
Do you think I'm stupid, o r negative for pointing out how FUCKED
things a re here at home?
Should we just ignore everything except the concerns about 'defeat'?
..I dont mind if you want to warn me again, and again, about the
possible future threat of some freaked out radical muslim extremist
exploding my pregnant wife and babi es with a strapped on nuke vest.
..I hear you..yes, it could happen..and, yes, it would be fucked!
.AND; Yes, if there is any reasonable way we could prevent it, or
minimize the possibility, I'm for it!
.
..I'm tired of the same old narrow minded,myopic shit, from people
who question my alliegance, and patriotism.
..I'm sickened, and saddened to hear the repetitive phrases, and simplistic
cliche's that obviously share a common origin.
?
..Are you willin g to defend America from defeat?
OK..So am I!
..Let's start by having a serious discussion about threat.
..I will fight for my country...America.
..I will join any, and all fellow Americans in defense of America.
..However,,I will NOT join in on some absurd delusional quest that believes
America has a duty, or right to impose some nebulous objective of
policing the all countries on earth into submission to an undefined
'freedom'.!
..I'm sorry Torog,,but I wanna barf when I hear yer fucking stupid mantra
of good intentions about sharing freedom with all th e world.
.I'm glad yer my friend..It helps me not feel so bad when
I call you an idiot, or a moron?/?]lol[

..I guess I've said enough.....for now.

††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††

..Phobia words for the day:
..
Zeusophobia- Fear of God or gods.

Theophobia- Fear of gods or religion.

Sophophobia- Fear of learning.

Sinistrophobia- Fear of things to the left, left-handed. ]]fear of LeftyToker[[

Eleutherophobia- Fear of freedom.

Optophobia- Fear of opening one's eyes.

Hippopotomonstrosesquippedaliophobia- Fear of long words.ˆ

Sesquipedalophobia- Fear of long words.(also)



ˆ¥√…ˆ¥©¥ƒøˆ¨µø
.
..
˚˚≈≈¶¥≈Ω¶•ª¥ƒ√ª∫π¶ç≈¶¥π˜µºˆºπ

r¥.




Re: America Will Not be Defeated
1rekoptoms

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Message #113208 posted by 1rekoptoms (Info) March 11, 2008 14:58:39 ET
In Reply to: Re: America Will Not be Defeated posted by LeftyToker (Info) March 11, 2008 07:51:20 ET

You have some excellant points . I just want to add 1 thing before I depart this disscussion I don't have a problem with ISLAM. Just the EXTREMISTS that stand behind ANY religion as a reason to blow up ANYONE . I would HATE Christians if they were in the streets blowing up innocent civilians in the name of GOD as well, or Jews , or Rastafarians . That is my only point I'm trying to make , it's not the ISLAMIC COMMUNITY I hate. I wish I had some Islamic friends then maybe I'd understand more and not feel so out of touch.

LOVE my COUNTRY , HATE my GOVERNMENT...

PEACE




Re: America Will Not be Defeated
forged registration

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Message #113209 posted by forged registration (Info) March 11, 2008 15:13:57 ET
In Reply to: Re: America Will Not be Defeated posted by LeftyToker (Info) March 11, 2008 07:51:20 ET

china holds less than half a trillion dollars of US treasury securities but that amount is growing faster than any other country over the past few years (more than doubling since 2004)

here is the scary bit:
foreign investors hold over 80% of US treasury securities due in the next 3 - 10 years:
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/05/30/bloomberg/bxatm.php




Re: America Will Not be Defeated
ozone again
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Message #113215 posted by ozone again (Info) March 11, 2008 16:52:15 ET
In Reply to: America Will Not be Defeated posted by Torog (Info) March 08, 2008 06:00:10 ET

Pentagon Study of 600,000 Iraqi Documents Finds No Link Between Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein

FOX NEWS
Tuesday, March 11, 2008

WASHINGTON — A forthcoming Pentagon study has found no operational link between Saddam Hussein and Usama bin Laden's Al Qaeda terrorist network.

McClatchy Newspapers reports that the study, expected to be released later this week, is based on an extensive review of more than 600,000 Iraqi documents that were seized after the U.S.-led war in Iraq in 2003.

While there was no link to Al Qaeda, the investigation revealed that Saddam's regime gave some support to other terror groups in the Middle East, U.S. officials told McClatchy on condition of anonymity. But he targeted those he considered his own enemies, including Shiite Muslims, Kurds, exiles and others, the news service reported.

Sponsored by the Pentagon, the report found no "direct operational link" between Saddam's government in Iraq and bin Laden's Al Qaeda terror ring before the U.S. invasion, an official told McClatchy.

The Bush administration put forth the argument that there was a connection between Saddam and bin Laden when it made the case to go to war with Iraq after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks on the United States.





America Will Not be told the truth
forged registration

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Message #113216 posted by forged registration (Info) March 11, 2008 17:24:18 ET
In Reply to: Re: America Will Not be Defeated posted by ozone again (Info) March 11, 2008 16:52:15 ET

WHOA! hold on there ozo...that *must* be a lie because the bush administration hasn't been dragged out of the white house to be tarred and feathered and run out of washington on a rail...either that, or americans are too trusting and have extremely low sales resistance



George W. Bush

2002

"The regime has longstanding and continuing ties to terrorist groups, and there are Al Qaida terrorists inside Iraq." - George W. Bush Delivers Weekly Radio Address, White House (9/28/2002) - BushOnIraq.com

"We know that Iraq and al Qaeda have had high-level contacts that go back a decade. Some al Qaeda leaders who fled Afghanistan went to Iraq. These include one very senior al Qaeda leader who received medical treatment in Baghdad this year, and who has been associated with planning for chemical and biological attacks. We've learned that Iraq has trained al Qaeda members in bomb-making and poisons and deadly gases." - President Bush Outlines Iraqi Threat; Remarks by the President on Iraq, White House (10/7/2002) - Whitehouse.gov

"I think they're both equally important, and they're both dangerous. And as I said in my speech in Cincinnati, we will fight if need be the war on terror on two fronts. We've got plenty of capacity to do so. And I also mentioned the fact that there is a connection between al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein. The war on terror, Iraq is a part on the war on terror. And he must disarm." - President Condems Attack in Bali, White House (10/14/2002) - Whitehouse.gov

"This is a man who has got connections with Al Qaida. Imagine a terrorist network with Iraq as an arsenal and as a training ground, so that a Saddam Hussein could use this shadowy group of people to attack his enemy and leave no fingerprint behind. He's a threat." - Remarks by the President in Texas Welcome, White House (11/4/2002) - Whitehouse.gov

"He's a threat because he is dealing with Al Qaida. In my Cincinnati speech I reminded the American people, a true threat facing our country is that an Al Qaida-type network trained and armed by Saddam could attack America and leave not one fingerprint." - President Outlines Priorities, White House (11/7/2002) - BushOnIraq.gov

"He's had contacts with Al Qaida. Imagine the scenario where an Al Qaida-type organization uses Iraq as an arsenal, a place to get weapons, a place to be trained to use the weapons. Saddam Hussein could use surrogates to come and attack people he hates." - Remarks by the President at Arkansas Welcome, White House (11/4/2002) - BushOnIraq.com

2003

"Evidence from intelligence sources, secret communications, and statements by people now in custody reveal that Saddam Hussein aids and protects terrorists, including members of al Qaeda. Secretly, and without fingerprints, he could provide one of his hidden weapons to terrorists, or help develop their own." - President Delivers "State of the Union", White House (1/28/2003) - Whitehouse.gov

"Before September the 11th, many in the world believed that Saddam Hussein could be contained. But chemical agents, lethal viruses, and shadowy terrorist networks are not easily contained. Imagine those 19 hijackers with other weapons and other planes -- this time armed by Saddam Hussein. It would take one vial, one canister, one crate slipped into this country to bring a day of horror like none we have ever known." - President Delivers "State of the Union", White House (1/28/2003) - Whitehouse.gov

"Saddam Hussein has longstanding, direct and continuing ties to terrorist networks. Senior members of Iraqi intelligence and al Qaeda have met at least eight times since the early 1990s. Iraq has sent bomb-making and document forgery experts to work with al Qaeda. Iraq has also provided al Qaeda with chemical and biological weapons training. We also know that Iraq is harboring a terrorist network, headed by a senior al Qaeda terrorist planner." - President Bush: "World Can Rise to This Moment", White House (2/6/2003) - Whitehouse.gov

Saddam Hussein has longstanding, direct and continuing ties to terrorist networks. Senior members of Iraq intelligence and al Qaeda have met at least eight times since the early 1990s. Iraq has sent bomb-making and document forgery experts to work with al Qaeda. Iraq has also provided al Qaeda with chemical and biological weapons training. And an al Qaeda operative was sent to Iraq several times in the late 1990s for help in aquiring poisons and gases. We also know that Iraq is harboring a terrorist network headed by a senior al Qaeda terrorist planner." - President's Radio Address, White House (2/8/2003) - BushOnIraq.com

"He has trained and financed al Qaeda-type organizations before, al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations." - President George Bush Discusses Iraq in National Press Conference, White House (3/6/2003) - BushOnIraq.com

"The regime . . . has aided, trained and harbored terrorists, including operatives of al Qaeda. The danger is clear: using chemical, biological or, one day, nuclear weapons, obtained with the help of Iraq, the terrorists could fulfill their stated ambitions and kill thousands or hundreds of thousands of innocent people in our country, or any other." President Says Saddam Hussein Must Leave Iraq Within 48 Hours, White House (3/17/2003) -BushOnIraq.com

"The liberation of Iraq is a crucial advance in the campaign against terror. We've removed an ally of al Qaeda, and cut off a source of terrorist funding. And this much is certain: No terrorist network will gain weapons of mass destruction from the Iraqi regime, because the regime is no more." - President Bush Announces Major Combat Operations in Iraq Have Ended, White House (5/1/2003) - BushOnIraq.com

"The battle of Iraq is one victory in a war on terror that began on September the 11, 2001 -- and still goes on. That terrible morning, 19 evil men -- the shock troops of a hateful ideology -- gave America and the civilized world a glimpse of their ambitions. They imagined, in the words of one terrorist, that September the 11th would be the 'beginning of the end of America.' By seeking to turn our cities into killing fields, terrorists and their allies believed that they could destroy this nation's resolve, and force our retreat from the world. They have failed." - President Bush Announces Major Combat Operations in Iraq Have Ended, White House (5/1/2003) - BushOnIraq.com


Dick Cheney

2002

"In Afghanistan we found confirmation that bin Laden and the al-Qaeda network were seriously interested in nuclear and radiological weapons, and in biological and chemical agents. We are especially concerned about any possible linkup between terrorists and regimes that have or seek weapons of mass destruction." - Vice President Delivers Remarks to the National Academy of Home Builders, White House (6/6/2002) - BushOnIraq.com

"His regime has had high-level contacts with al Qaeda going back a decade and has provided training to al Qaeda terrorists." - Remarks by the Vice President at the Air National Guard Senior Leadership Conference, White House (12/2/2002) - BushOnIraq.com

"There is also a grave danger that al Qaeda or other terrorists will join with outlaw regimes that have these weapons to attack their common enemy, the United States of America. That is why confronting the threat posed by Iraq is not a distraction from the war on terror." - Remarks by the Vice President at the Air National Guard Senior Leadership Conference, White House (12/2/2002) - BushOnIraq.com

2003

"His regime aids and protects terrorists, including members of al Qaeda. He could decide secretly to provide weapons of mass destruction to terrorists for use against us." - Vice President's Remarks at 30th Political Action Conference, White House (1/30/2003) - BushOnIraq.com

"And Saddam Hussein becomes a prime suspect in that regard because of his past track record and because we know he has, in fact, developed these kinds of capabilities, chemical and biological weapons. . . We know that he has a long-standing relationship with various terrorist groups, including the al-Qaeda organization." - Dick Cheney, Meet the Press, NBC (3/16/2003) - BushOnIraq.com

"I have argued in the past, and would again, if we had been able to pre-empt the attacks of 9/11 would we have done it? And I think absolutely. We have to be prepared now to take the kind of bold action that's being contemplated with respect to Iraq in order to ensure that we don't get hit with a devastating attack when the terrorists' organization gets married up with a rogue state that's willing to provide it with the kinds of deadly capabilities that Saddam Hussein has developed and used over the years." - Dick Cheney, Meet the Press, NBC (3/16/2003) - BushOnIraq.com

"If we're successful in Iraq, if we can stand up a good representative government in Iraq, that secures the region so that it never again becomes a threat to its neighbors or to the United States, so it's not pursuing weapons of mass destruction, so that it's not a safe haven for terrorists, now we will have struck a major blow right at the heart of the base, if you will, the geographic base of the terrorists who have had us under assault now for many years, but most especially on 9/11." - Dick Cheney, Meet the Press, NBC (9/14/2003) - BushOnIraq.com

"(Since September 11) We learned more and more that there was a relationship between Iraq and al-Qaeda that stretched back through most of the decade of the '90s, that it involved training, for example, on BW and CW, that al-Qaeda sent personnel to Baghdad to get trained on the systems that are involved. The Iraqis providing bomb-making expertise and advice to the al-Qaeda organization." - Dick Cheney, Meet the Press, NBC (9/14/2003) - BushOnIraq.com

"And the reason we had to do Iraq, if you hark back and think about that link between the terrorists and weapons of mass destruction, Iraq was the place where we were most fearful that that was most likely to occur, because in Iraq we've had a government -- not only was it one of the worst dictatorships in modern times, but had oftentimes hosted terrorists in the past . . . but also an established relationship with the al Qaeda organization . . . ." - Vice President Dick Cheney Remarks at Luncheon for Congressman Jim Gerlach, White House (10/3/2003) - BushOnIraq.com

"(I)f we had not paid any attention to the fact that al Qaeda was being hosted in Northeastern Iraq, part of poisons network producing ricin and cyanide that was intended to be used in attacks both in Europe, as well as in North Africa and ignored it, we would have been derelict in our duties and responsibilities." - Vice President Dick Cheney Remarks at Luncheon for Congressman Jim Gerlach, White House (10/3/2003) - BushOnIraq.com

"He cultivated ties to terror, hosting the Abu Nidal organization, supporting terrorists, making payments to the families of suicide bombers in Israel. He also had an established relationship with al Qaeda, providing training to al Qaeda members in the areas of poisons, gases, making conventional bombs." - Remarks by Vice President Dick Cheney at the Heritage Foundation, White House (10/10/2003) - BushOnIraq.com

"Saddam Hussein had a lengthy history of reckless and sudden aggression. He cultivated ties to terror -- hosting the Abu Nidal organization, supporting terrorists, and making payments to the families of suicide bombers. He also had an established relationship with Al Qaida -- providing training to Al Qaida members in areas of poisons, gases and conventional bombs. He built, possessed, and used weapons of mass destruction." - Richard B. Cheney Delivers Remarks at the James A. Baker, III, Institute for Public Policy, White House (10/18/2003) - BushOnIraq.com

2004

"We'll find ample evidence confirming the link, that is the connection if you will between al Qaida and the Iraqi intelligence services. They have worked together on a number of occasions." - Transcript of interview with Vice President Dick Cheney, Rocky Mountain News (1/9/2004) - BushOnIraq.com

"We did have reporting that was public, that came out shortly after the 9/11 attack, provided by the Czech government, suggesting there had been a meeting in Prague between Mohammed Atta, the lead hijacker, and a man named al-Ani (Ahmed Khalil Ibrahim Samir al-Ani), who was an Iraqi intelligence official in Prague, at the embassy there, in April of '01, prior to the 9/11 attacks. It has never been -- we've never been able to collect any more information on that. That was the one that possibly tied the two together to 9/11." - Transcript of Interview with Vice President Dick Cheney, Rocky Mountain News (1/9/2004) - BushOnIraq.com

"Saddam Hussein had a lengthy history of reckless and sudden aggression. His regime cultivated ties to terror, including the al Qaeda network, and had built, possessed, and used weapons of mass destruction." - Richard B. Cheney Delivers Remarks to the Los Angeles World Affairs Council, White House (1/14/2004) - BushOnIraq.com

"Saddam Hussein had a lengthy history of reckless and sudden aggression. His regime cultivated ties to terror, including the al Qaeda network, and had built, possessed, and used weapons of mass destruction." - Richard B. Cheney Delivers Remarks to Veterans at the Arizona Wing Museum, White House (1/15/2004) - BushOnIraq.com

"I continue to believe. I think there's overwhelming evidence that there was a connection between al-Qaeda and the Iraqi government. We've discovered since documents indicating that a guy named Abdul Rahman Yasin, who was a part of the team that attacked the World Trade Center in '93, when he arrived back in Iraq was put on the payroll and provided a house, safe harbor and sanctuary. That's public information now. So Saddam Hussein had an established track record of providing safe harbor and sanctuary for terrorists. . . . I mean, this is a guy who was an advocate and a supporter of terrorism whenever it suited his purpose, and I'm very confident that there was an established relationship there." - Dick Cheney, Morning Edition, NPR (1/22/2004) - BushOnIraq.com




"He (Abu Musab al-Zarqawi) took up residence there before we ever launched into Iraq, organized the Al Qaeda operations inside Iraq before we even arrived on the scene and then, of course, led the charge for Iraq until we killed him last June. As I say, they were present before we invaded Iraq."
- VP Dick Cheney, April 2007




Re: America Will Not be told the truth
jon104

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Message #113219 posted by jon104 (Info) March 11, 2008 17:39:34 ET
In Reply to: America Will Not be told the truth posted by forged registration (Info) March 11, 2008 17:24:18 ET

I don't think anyone supports big oil, I surely don't!

But its the Arabs fault and if we would just killem instead of pay them and make their oil ours, that would work.

Jon104




Re: America Will Not be told the truth
forged registration

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Message #113220 posted by forged registration (Info) March 11, 2008 17:53:40 ET
In Reply to: Re: America Will Not be told the truth posted by jon104 (Info) March 11, 2008 17:39:34 ET

it didn't work when we overthrew iran's democratically elected government because it nationalized the oil industry back in the 1950's

it's partly our fault too because our foreign policy hasn't been to kind to arabs...they are kinda sensitive about uncle sam carving up the middle east, supporting brutal arab dictators, supporting/supplying/financing israel's 40 year illegal occupation, supporting both sides of the iraq-iran war, starving a million or so arabs to death with trade sanctions, blowing an iranian passenger jet out of the sky and president bush senior taunting the victims, stationing US troops in mecca holy land, bombing iraq for ten years between gulf wars, etc...most folks would think it was totally the fault of arabs if they were doing all that to america for the past century




Re: America Will Not be Defeated
Torog
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Message #113229 posted by Torog (Info) March 12, 2008 06:11:55 ET
In Reply to: Re: America Will Not be Defeated posted by ozone again (Info) March 11, 2008 16:52:15 ET


Howdy ozone,

I don't care if they found no 'direct operational link',there's a direct ideaological link between the baath party and saddam and sons,which whole-heartedly embraced hitler and naziism and usama's goals. Both groups wanted to destroy America and Israel and the ones that are still left,are still pursueing the same goals.

Are you reduced to making apologies for an enemy that wishes to destroy us ?

After the Bush admin is gone,who will you blame then ? How will you be able to continue to 'apologize' for the enemy's actions against us and the Free World ?

Must I remind you,that the most cherished goal of Islam,is to bring about the establishment of a world-wide caliphate and provoke the return of the 12th imam ?

We are facing an enemy,that is every bit as determined and blood-thirsty,as hitler,mao and stalin..and the world cannot go forward,until they are defeated.

Have a good one ...


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Re: America Will Not be Defeated
forged registration

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Message #113241 posted by forged registration (Info) March 12, 2008 15:47:41 ET
In Reply to: Re: America Will Not be Defeated posted by Torog (Info) March 12, 2008 06:11:55 ET

must i remind you that arab armies are not occupying foreign lands? must i remind you that israel's jewish army has been occupying foreign terrority for over 40 years? must i remind you that america's christian army is currently occupying two muslim countries, and has hundreds of military bases scattered around the world?

let me know when arab armies are doing that and then maybe i'll start worrying about them establishing a world wide caliphate




Re: America Will Not be Defeated
Torog
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Message #113250 posted by Torog (Info) March 13, 2008 05:18:08 ET
In Reply to: Re: America Will Not be Defeated posted by forged registration (Info) March 12, 2008 15:47:41 ET


Howdy FR,

The way I see it-it's the pali's who are occupying Jewish land,given to the Jews by God..long ago.

Have a good one !


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Re: America Will Not be Defeated
forged registration

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Message #113252 posted by forged registration (Info) March 13, 2008 10:55:39 ET
In Reply to: Re: America Will Not be Defeated posted by Torog (Info) March 13, 2008 05:18:08 ET

if god is in charge of foreign policy then by all means, lay on with the genocide for jesus!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hk41Gbjljfo







Re: America Will Not be Defeated
ozone again
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Apr-18-2002
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Message #113267 posted by ozone again (Info) March 13, 2008 18:41:18 ET
In Reply to: Re: America Will Not be Defeated posted by Torog (Info) March 12, 2008 06:11:55 ET

Torog sez: “I don't care if they found no 'direct operational link',there's a direct ideaological link between the baath party and saddam and sons,which whole-heartedly embraced hitler and naziism and usama's goals. Both groups wanted to destroy America and Israel and the ones that are still left,are still pursueing the same goals.

Are you reduced to making apologies for an enemy that wishes to destroy us ?

After the Bush admin is gone,who will you blame then ? How will you be able to continue to 'apologize' for the enemy's actions against us and the Free World ?

Must I remind you,that the most cherished goal of Islam,is to bring about the establishment of a world-wide caliphate and provoke the return of the 12th imam ?

We are facing an enemy,that is every bit as determined and blood-thirsty,as hitler,mao and stalin..and the world cannot go forward,until they are defeated.”


I said all that? I thought I posted an article from FOX News stating that Bush was wrong about our reason for invading Iraq. Or maybe FOX implied that the president lied. Oh jeez, let’s be charitable, maybe Bush was just misled. Like you said, doesn’t matter, though, does it? Because at the heart of it, both you and Bush had the same reason for wanting to go into Iraq --- a hard-on for revenge, plain and simple.

The whole mission was ill-conceived and poorly executed. Sure, we took out a dictator, but one that Bush senior was wise enough not to remove, because he realized the power vacuum that would result.

You keep talking about protecting America, and the necessity --- as much as you say you regret it --- for collateral damage in pursuing that protection. Well, if you’re willing to accept collateral damage, that should have meant leaving Iraq alone, and the Iraqis to deal with Saddam, so that we could concentrate on Afghanistan, where we knew al-Qaeda was.

At one point in the 1990s, Usama bin Laden offered the Saudis and Kuwaitis to take his fighters into Iraq to take out Saddam. They may have all been Sunnis, but they certainly weren’t on the same page. Saddam was a secularist, bin Laden a fundamentalist. It was the U.S. that created the power vacuum in Iraq and sucked al-Qaeda into it, and instead of one battlefield, we have two. Remember what happened to Germany in WWII with too many fronts?


Actually, I don’t even know what you’re talking about anymore. Somewhere along the line, the right-wing rhetoric got ramped up to include all of Islam as the enemy, not just al-Qaeda. That means all of the freedom-loving Muslims in Iraq are our enemies --- all of them. Why are we even worrying about giving those ingrates democracy? Think they’ll convert to Christianity if they get democracy? Christianity, which has the stated goal of trying to convert all of humankind to follow Christ, in preparation for the return of Christ? Hmm, sounds similar to Islam in the broad strokes.





Torog
Elijah Mohammad

Registered on
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Message #113269 posted by Elijah Mohammad (Info) March 13, 2008 21:03:50 ET
In Reply to: Re: America Will Not be Defeated posted by Torog (Info) March 13, 2008 05:18:08 ET

" Howdy FR,

The way I see it-it's the pali's who are occupying Jewish land,given to the Jews by God..long ago.

Have a good one !"




Did you know that one of the most consistent characteristics of Jewish populations (except for the Eastern European Ashkenazi Khazars) is that their Paternal lineages are mostly from the Middle East?(http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/97/12/6769, http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts.html) The people that are called "Palis" by you, are more Jewish than the majority of the population of Ashkenazi Khazars who took over that land by force (who are, and were, largely descended from white people who converted to Judaism....and not the original Law of Moses Judaism, the corrupt Talmudic Judaism that Jesus condemned). Guess who the Palestinians are, for the most part? They are the Jews who lived in Palestine at the time of the Romans and Jesus, who converted to Christianity, and continued to live in their ancestral homeland even after the rebellious Jews were kicked out and slaughtered by the Romans. They lived there for hundreds of years, just as their fathers before them had, keeping the Word of God in truth, and accepting God's prophets as they came, including Jesus....then, they converted to Islam, and continued to be one of the people in the world keeping to the Word of God in truth the most....even more so than their Muslim bretheren who lived in more cosmopolitan places, and fell more to the corruption of the Hadith fabricators. They continued to live there for thousands of years, until the Khazars, the descendants of Gehazi (2 Kings 5) came, and acted as all their ancestors before them did, and stole the land, and treated the previous inhabitants with violence. These are the same people (The descendants of Gehazi) who also were the Germanic tribes, who conquered the Roman Empire, and began to call it the "Holy Roman Empire." They took over the world, and still rule it, and oppress the people today. And didn't Noah prophecy about that, when he said, "Blessed be the God of Shem, and Japheth shall dwell in the tents of Shem, and Caanan shall be their servant."?
The Caananites were wiped out as a people. They only survived by mixing with other people to a large degree. Their genes were made servants of the genes of the Shemites and Japhethites, and those two people have taken their land....additionally, the Japhethites (The Ashkenazi and other white Europeans) have taken the land and homes of the Shemites (the Middle Easterners and North Africans, who are now mostly Muslim). Noah said, blessed be the God of Shem...today, the Shemites call him "Allah," and worship him without ascribing any partners to him, as their faithful ancestors have always done, and have passed on....as God said that he knew Abraham would instruct his children (descendants) after him to stick to the Word of God, and not ascribe any partners to him in worship. And so they have, and do....but Satan fights this. Both the Jews and the Christians have been fully infiltrated by the Pagans. They claim that the infinite God has literal children, and that they themselves are just mini versions of him (in the most extreme form, which it always leads to in subconscious thinking). How can we be children of God when he is infinite and we are finite, having had a beginning, and having limits to our knowledge and power? Like begets like. There's no such thing as a creature that begets literal children that are not the same kind of creature it is, with the same kinds of characteristics. God is infinite! We are not, we had a beginning! God is all powerful! We are not! God is all knowing! We are not! Not even Jesus! As he says so himself as recorded in the Bible and the Quran! Allah is the MOST HIGH. There is none co-equal to him or comparable. But the Bible is confused on this issue, because it has been corrupted. You will not find solid doctrinal support in the Bible for either side of the issue. There are verses that officially claim that Jesus is God, and there are verses that officially claim that Jesus is not God, he is below him, and that God is above all. That is because it has been in the hands of Pagans for thousands of years. Pagans completely controlled it, and kept anyone else from reading it for hundreds of years under penalty of torture and death. The Quran is all righteous precepts and truth, without contradiction...the Word of God....and has been memorized by loyal Monotheists (non-Pagans) since Mohammad, never being denied to the people. They are the Semites, they are the true Jews, they are the true Christians, who hold to the Quran alone as the Word of God, and believe the Word of God as it is manifested anywhere else....including in previous scriptures, which have been preserved MOSTLY accurately (but with many insertions of men still).

Peace to those who make it.

Elijah




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