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Iranian Nuclear Weapons Challenges-a Serious Look
Torog
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Message #51208 posted by Torog (Info) June 21, 2003 09:08:21 ET



Iranian Nuclear Weapons Challenges - A Serious Look at the Real Options
The Washington Institute ^ | 6.20.2003 | The Washington Institute



Iranian Nuclear Weapons Challenges

The Washington Institute M. Eisenstadt, M. Knights , J. White

Part I: The Challenges Of U.S. Preventive Action Part II: Operational Challenges Part III: How Might Iran Retaliate?

Iranian Nuclear Weapons, Part I: The Challenges Of U.S. Preventive Action

By Michael Eisenstadt

Having just fought a war to rid Iraq of weapons of mass destruction, and alarmed by fresh signs of dramatic progress by Tehran in the nuclear arena, the United States is pressing the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) to declare Iran in violation of its commitments under the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons (NPT) at the next meeting of the agency's board of governors on June 16. In the coming weeks, it will become clear whether there is a diplomatic option for dealing with Iran's nuclear program. Yet, U.S. policymakers have also likely considered preventive military action against Iran's nuclear infrastructure. Is prevention a viable option for the United States? If so, what are its risks and implications?

Iran's Nuclear Progress

Iran's nuclear program has made steady progress. The power plant at Bushehr is finally approaching completion and, according to Russian officials, may be ready for delivery of reactor fuel later this year. Although not ideally suited for the purpose, the plant could produce enough plutonium for dozens of nuclear weapons per year; moreover, its low-enriched uranium fuel could be diverted and enriched into weapons-grade material.

Iran is also completing a uranium conversion facility at Esfahan to produce uranium hexafluoride feed-stock for its centrifuge program; Iranian officials claim that the plant is nearly ready to begin production. Moreover, a February 2003 IAEA visit revealed that Iran is producing gas centrifuges. At a facility at Natanz, the agency found a small pilot cascade of 160 centrifuges, parts for 1,000 more, and plans to have 5,000 up and running within two years -- in a facility large enough to accommodate tens of thousands of centrifuges. If Iran tested these existing centrifuges before commencing mass production -- it seems implausible that they were not tested -- it may have violated its NPT commitments.

In short, Iran appears well on the way to attaining all of the elements needed to produce large quantities of fissile material by either the plutonium or uranium-enrichment routes. It could produce its first nuclear weapon in one to three years, turning out enough fissile material for dozens of weapons a year. Hence, the window of opportunity for effective preventive action (if such a window still exists) is more likely to be measured in months than years.

The Challenges of Prevention

Preventive action will not stop a determined proliferator as far advanced as Iran, though it could cause delays. The principal goal of U.S. action would be to delay Iran's nuclear program long enough to allow for the possible emergence of new leadership in Tehran that is willing to eschew nuclear weapons (which seems improbable) or that is more likely to act responsibly should it obtain such weapons.

Intelligence Challenges. To succeed, preventive action must inflict significant damage on key facilities associated with both Iran's plutonium and uranium-enrichment programs. Accomplishing this objective would require a rather complete picture of Iran's nuclear program, including knowledge about possible clandestine facilities. Recent experience in Iraq and North Korea is not encouraging; for years, both countries successfully hid large parts of their nuclear programs from the United States, which may have similar gaps in its knowledge about Iran's nuclear program.

Technical Challenges. The technical processes related to fissile material production create both vulnerabilities and challenges. Plutonium programs may be vulnerable to interdiction due to their reliance on large reactors that produce significant signatures. Destroying the reactor at Bushehr could set back Iran's plutonium program several years, provided Iran is not building or operating a clandestine plutonium production reactor elsewhere. The Bushehr reactor would have to be targeted prior to start-up to avoid exposing civilians downwind to fallout.

Centrifuge programs pose a more complex set of challenges. A large number of workshops and factories may be involved in producing and assembling centrifuges, and they can be widely dispersed and easily hidden. Centrifuge cascades can be housed in small, dispersed, nondescript facilities, as well as in huge plants such as the one at Natanz. If preventive action is to have a long-term impact, both production and enrichment facilities would have to be destroyed, which may not be practical. The uranium conversion plant at Esfahan may therefore be the weak link in the chain; destroying it could set back Iran's centrifuge program several years, provided Iran does not possess a pilot plant or duplicate facility elsewhere.

Political Challenges. There seems to be broad support in Iran for the government's efforts to acquire nuclear weapons. Thus, should it act preventively, the United States must ensure that such action does not poison the reservoir of pro-American goodwill among young Iranians, thereby complicating efforts to encourage political change and improve U.S.-Iranian relations. From a political perspective, overt U.S. military action would be the least desirable option. To resolve this dilemma, the United States might undertake covert action or encourage preventive action by its allies.

Other than Israel, few, if any, U.S. allies would be willing or able to carry out such an operation. Moreover, overt Israeli action would almost certainly be seen as inspired by Washington, and Iran might be tempted to strike back in ways that would heighten tensions between Israel and its neighbors and harm U.S. interests (e.g., encouraging Palestinian terrorism against Israeli or American targets; goading the Lebanese Hizballah -- with its 8,000-plus katyusha rockets -- to heat up the border with Israel). Israel may be willing to accept these risks in order to deal with a perceived existential threat.

Covert action would be the most politically expedient way to disrupt Iran's nuclear program, as it would reduce the risks of a political backlash and complicate identification of a target for retaliation. U.S. intelligence, however, would have to recruit well-placed assets in key facilities in both the plutonium and uranium-enrichment programs; for this reason, the prospects for success seem remote.

Overt military action (e.g., cruise missiles; strike aircraft) may offer the best hope for striking all of Iran's critical nuclear facilities at once. But overt action is politically problematic. It could prompt a backlash among Iranians formerly sympathetic to the United States, strengthen the hand of hardliners, and spur the regime to retaliate against U.S. interests in the Gulf or elsewhere. Should overt action be deemed necessary, Washington could best explain its intervention in terms that some of the many Iranians hostile to the country's hardline clerical leadership might understand: a desire to deny the hardliners -- who support repression at home and terrorism abroad -- access to nuclear weapons.

Conclusion

Successful U.S. prevention would require exceptionally complete intelligence; near flawless military execution; and deft poststrike diplomacy to mitigate nationalist/anti-American backlash, deter retaliation and, most important, catalyze political change in Iran. The complex, daunting, and somewhat contradictory nature of these challenges (e.g., successful prevention could harm short-term prospects for political change and complicate long-term prospects for rapprochement with a new Iran) only underscores the importance of exhausting diplomatic options before giving serious consideration to military action. Washington, moreover, must supplement these efforts with a serious push to prevent North Korea from emerging as a nuclear supplier to Iran and others. Time is short, and whether it chooses diplomatic or military tools, the United States must act soon, vis-a-vis both Iran and North Korea.

Michael Eisenstadt is a senior fellow at The Washington Institute.

Iranian Nuclear Weapons, Part II: Operational Challenges

By Michael Knights

This PolicyWatch is the second in a three-part series. Part I (PolicyWatch No. 760, "The Challenges of U.S. Preventive Action," by Michael Eisenstadt) examined the political and military challenges of preventing an Iranian nuclear breakout; Part III, by Jeffrey White, will examine potential Iranian responses to preemption.

Background

Counterproliferation strikes on nuclear sites are uncommon but by no means unprecedented. Germany's embryonic nuclear program was attacked during World War II, Iraq's Osiraq nuclear plant was bombed by Iran in 1980 and by Israel in 1981, and Iran's Bushehr reactor site was attacked by Iraq throughout 1984-1988. During the 1991 Gulf War, the United States set a precedent by attacking the al-Tuwaitha nuclear site while radioactive materials were present. In January 1993, the United States fired forty-four Tomahawk missiles at a suspected Iraqi uranium enrichment facility at Zafaraniyah. By the time Operation Desert Fox was launched in December 1998 with the aim of stunting Iraq's weapons of mass destruction (WMD) program, Baghdad had learned to disperse and conceal its WMD infrastructure within civilian dual-use industries. This forced the United States to strike indirectly at Iraqi WMD capabilities through military industries supporting the development of delivery systems. Iran appears to have learned the lessons of previous counterproliferation strikes; its nuclear program presents a difficult set of potential targets for U.S. forces to locate and attack.

Counterproliferation Targets

There are two fuels that can be used for nuclear weapons -- highly enriched uranium (HEU) and plutonium -- and Iran appears to be pursuing both routes. The HEU fuel cycle involves a chain of processes, each requiring facilities that may or may not serve as viable counterproliferation targets:

- Facilities for mining and milling uranium ore provide few targets; mine-heads cannot be permanently closed using conventional weapons, and milling facilities are relatively cheap to fabricate and easy to conceal.

- Uranium hexafluoride (UF6) conversion is undertaken at the Rudan Nuclear Research Center near Shiraz, which represents a primary target for counterproliferation strikes.

- Uranium enrichment facilities present another vital but problematic target set. The large site at Natanz may currently hold over 1,000 gas centrifuges, and it is scheduled to house 5,000 by 2005. Some of the buildings under construction there are partly buried and hardened with two-meter-thick walls.

- The industrial base of centrifuge production would need to be eliminated; otherwise, Iran could readily construct new enrichment facilities that are smaller and more nondescript. Specialized metallurgical design and manufacturing facilities (e.g., the National Iranian Steel Company; the Applied Research Center) are not required for centrifuge design, which involves relatively simple engineering techniques that have not changed since the 1940s. Finding and destroying all potential enrichment facilities would be a very daunting task.

- Fuel fabrication and bomb assembly facilities are required to weaponize HEU, but they do not have signatures that can be detected by satellites or aircraft; hence, it is unknown whether such sites exist in Iran.

As for the plutonium route, nuclear reactors remain the weakest link. Vulnerable, fixed, and highly visible on Iran's exposed southern coast, the Bushehr light-water reactor being constructed by Russia would be an easy target. Despite strong air defenses, the reactor halls and their vulnerable cores are essentially indefensible to stand-off precision-guided weapons. Preventing casualties among the 1,000 Russians working at the site could prove challenging. Because a pre-attack warning could spur Iran to deploy human shields, the best means of reducing the risk to foreigners would be careful timing of the strike outside their working hours.

A covertly assembled Iranian reactor would be difficult to detect during construction but relatively easy to locate once operational. The Arak heavy-water production plant -- a precursor to development of a heavy-water reactor -- is vulnerable, and future heavy-water production sites would be difficult to camouflage due to their distinct physical profile. If diplomacy or military action denied the Iranians the option of large reactors, they would be forced to either procure spent fuel rods from an outside source or scrape together spent fuel from their light-water research reactors -- a laborious process that would slow weapons development to a crawl.

Breaking the plutonium fuel cycle at the reprocessing stage would be very difficult. Iran is likely to favor parallel development of a number of smaller "disposable" reprocessing plants, as opposed to large sites with distinctive isotopic and heat signatures. Such plants could remain undetected for much of their short lives.

The Expanding Scope of Operations

The operational challenges of attacking Iran's nuclear program from the air are manifold. One approach would be to identify and target the most difficult element to replace, a strategy called "bottleneck" targeting. From what is known publicly, the key node in Iran's uranium-enrichment program is the Isafahan UF6 facility; in the plutonium program, it is the Bushehr reactor. To be sure, Iran could develop alternatives; for instance, smaller amounts of UF6 could be produced at the Physics Research Center at Sharif University of Technology in Tehran, and there may be covert sites as well. Nevertheless, attacks on the key nodes would delay Iranian nuclear weapons development by at least a few years.

Such bottleneck targeting would be a necessity if Israel chose to strike Iran's nuclear program. Israeli air forces would face a far longer and better defended route of attack than they did in the Osiraq strike, and regional states would be unlikely to support an attack on Iran (e.g., Turkey could refuse basing privileges; Arab states could deny overflight rights). Moreover, a manned aircraft strike would require massive refueling support, while the long-range strike capabilities of Israeli submarines remain uncertain, reducing the scope of an attack to a few targets in western Iran.

If the United States decided to preempt Iran's nuclear program, it could consider attacking a wider range of nuclear targets throughout the country, presumably including the Natanz centrifuge complex and, perhaps, the Arak heavy-water facility. Above-ground targets such as nuclear reactors could be attacked with cruise missiles, eliminating the challenge of securing basing rights and navigating air defenses. A wider strike would require the use of manned aircraft, however, which are much more capable of destroying buried and hardened targets. Although stealth aircraft could be used, their radar-defeating characteristics are typically supported with strikes on air defense systems. Iran's air defense system would require a substantial suppression effort, involving strikes on command centers, radar networks, and a largely unmapped web of mobile and fixed surface-to-air missile batteries. Because forward bases in the Persian Gulf and the Indian Ocean would probably not be made available to the United States, this larger effort would require intensive use of aircraft based on carriers, which could be vulnerable to Iranian antishipping attacks.

A U.S. preemptive strike would also have to take into consideration Iran's potential reaction (the subject of Part III of this series). The United States has security commitments to preempt Iranian retaliation against its Gulf bases, its Gulf Cooperation Council allies, and commercial shipping. That might require strikes on Iran's Shahab-3 long-range ballistic missiles, numerous mobile theater ballistic missiles, antishipping missiles, and certain Iranian naval and air units. Such commitments would draw considerably on those assets needed for strikes on nuclear targets, prolonging the length of any counterproliferation air campaign.

The bottom line is that the United States would find it difficult to limit an air operation against Iran to a small set of targets, as was done in the 1998 Desert Fox counterproliferation strike against Iraq. As a result, a preemptive strike against Iran could become a substantial operation.

Michael Knights is the Mendelow defense fellow at The Washington Institute.

Iranian Nuclear Weapons, Part III: How Might Iran Retaliate?

By Jeffrey White

This PolicyWatch is the third in a three-part series. Part I, by Michael Eisenstadt, examined the political and military challenges of preventing an Iranian nuclear breakout; Part II, by Michael Knights, examined the operational challenges of preemptive action.

A U.S. or "coalition" strike against Iran's nuclear program would be an exercise in high-stakes compellence. Although the physical results of such a strike (e.g., amount of damage inflicted; number of years by which the Iranian nuclear program would be set back) are uncertain, the consequences for U.S.-Iranian relations are not. Whatever the core purposes of the Iranian nuclear program -- defensive-deterrent or offensive-coercive -- attacking a program of vital national importance is tantamount to initiating long-term hostilities with Iran. Washington must assume that Iran would seek to punish its attackers. Its reaction to a strike, especially over the mid- to long-term, would be calculated, creative, and challenging for the United States and any participating allies. Iran would be prepared to wait to deliver punishment, maximizing its chances and effects through careful planning and execution.

Nature of the Attack

To a degree, the Iranian reaction would likely be contingent on the nature of the attack on its nuclear program. It is quite possible, however, that the Iranians would react to even a limited strike as if it were a general attack on the program, perhaps even on the regime and state. Given the broad scope of the Iranian program, the United States would have to mount a comprehensive attack aimed at several key facilities in order to significantly stunt its progress. Any such operations would need to be precise and effective. Key facilities and components would need to be completely destroyed or rendered useless, and this level of damage is not always easy to achieve.

To the extent that the United States could obscure its role via a covert strike, the Iranian reaction might be less focused. Yet, there is little chance that responsibility for a comprehensive attack, even if conducted by covert means, could be avoided for long. Indeed, Iran might react against the United States even if the attack were carried out by a U.S. ally such as Israel.

A direct U.S. attack with cruise missiles and manned aircraft would have the best prospects for setting back Iran's nuclear program. Yet, such an attack could evolve into a large and complex campaign, requiring significant support operations to suppress Iranian air defenses; provide combat search-and-rescue services; eliminate Iran's ability to retaliate immediately with air, missile, or naval units; and conduct "re-strikes" if the initial attacks were less successful than intended.

Reaction

Iran's reaction to U.S. strikes can be considered in three time frames: immediate, mid-term, and long-term. In the immediate period, including during the strikes themselves, Iran would undertake primarily defensive measures. It would mount the most robust defense it could with its air and air-defense forces. It would also attempt to attack any locatable launch points for the strikes. As the operation unfolded, Tehran would assess whether it represented a limited attack on the program or a comprehensive attack on the regime. Tehran would then place noninvolved forces on alert, disperse high-value assets (including leadership assets and missile forces), and implement contingency plans (including internal security plans) for a wider attack. It might also prepare to close the Straits of Hormuz, readying mines, small boats, and coastal defense missiles and reinforcing its presence on the Persian Gulf islands.

As the attack concluded, Iran would assess the damage done and assign responsibility. Significant losses to the civilian population from the release of radioactive material would be an especially dangerous situation, with Iran potentially reacting by employing chemical or biological weapons. Even if its immediate reaction were completely conventional, however, Iran could rapidly broaden its effect by involving other states in the region, striking at U.S. assets in reach, and threatening oil shipments through the straits. Hence, the United States would likely have to contend with a general Gulf crisis.

Mid-term Reaction. In the mid-term, and assuming the situation did not rapidly escalate to major hostilities, Tehran would adopt a more deliberate approach. Iranian decisionmakers would begin weighing options for a calculated and appropriate response. They would launch a political-diplomatic offensive in the hopes of characterizing Iran as the aggrieved party, Finlandizing or intimidating regional players, and establishing the basis for the resumption of its nuclear program. They would then take available defensive and punitive measures in the region consistent with their political strategy. More important, they would initiate planning for strategic, long-term retaliation.

Long-term Reaction. In the long-term, Iran would attempt to take steps that would insure itself against another attack on its nuclear program or a broader attack on the regime. Tehran would almost certainly rebuild the program, reflecting its status as a high-value national asset. Unless significant numbers of scientists and technicians were killed in the strikes, there is no reason why Tehran could not restart the program; as long as it possesses the necessary knowledge and skills, Iran will have the basis for such a program. Indeed, Iran would likely accelerate both its nuclear and long-range-missile efforts in order to achieve a measure of deterrence as quickly as possible. The regime would also increase security for the program by instituting or increasing hardening, dispersal, redundancy, and active defense measures.

In addition, Tehran would likely plan and then implement asymmetric attacks on high-value U.S. and allied targets. A number of such possibilities exist, including using Hizballah to attack Israel with long-range rockets from southern Lebanon; launching asymmetric attacks on allied forces or on the transitional government in Iraq; attacking U.S. allies in the Gulf; or sponsoring terrorist operations against U.S. interests abroad or on U.S. soil. By using proxy elements, Tehran probably has a better chance of successfully arguing for plausible denial (at least with some audiences) than Washington would for any attack on Iran. Finally, the regime would attempt to use the U.S. attack as a means of rallying domestic political support. Any political forces seeking accommodation with Washington would be put on the defensive, if not written off completely.

Implications

The implications of a U.S. or allied strike against Iran's nuclear program are considerable. The United States would have to be prepared for a long-term conflict with an Iran that would seek out and attack weak points. Washington must weigh the costs and benefits of facing a more overtly hostile Iran following a strike as opposed to a nuclear-armed Iran in the not-too-distant future. Washington will also have to weigh the short-term benefit of delaying Iran's nuclear program against the possible long-term consequence of undermining those forces in Iran that want to improve U.S.-Iranian relations.

In the wake of an attack on Iran, Washington would need to demonstrate "escalation dominance" -- that is, holding other high-value Iranian targets hostage while making clear that still-worse things could happen to Iran if it retaliated against important U.S. targets or interests. The United States must also be ready to defend any of its allies that are within Iran's reach.

Jeffrey White, a retired U.S. government intelligence analyst specializing in military and security affairs, is an associate of The Washington Institute.




Re: Iranian Nuclear Weapons Challenges-a Serious Look
Torog
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Message #51212 posted by Torog (Info) June 21, 2003 09:24:30 ET
In Reply to: Iranian Nuclear Weapons Challenges-a Serious Look posted by Torog (Info) June 21, 2003 09:08:21 ET


Sorry for such a long article-but I hope you understand more about why America must act in regard to Iran-Iraq is no longer a problem for Iran-therefore their only enemies in the region are Israel and the US. The only reason for Iran to posses nuclear deterrence-is because of Israel and the US-which ain't gonna work-cuz they can never defeat Israel and the US-in a nuclear war. So-as long as fundie muslims are in charge-serious consideration must be given to putting a screeching halt to the Iranian nuclear weapons program.

The same thing goes for North Korea as well-we cannot allow brutal dictatorships and totalitarian rogue regimes-to have any sort of nuclear weapons-because they WILL eventually use them irresponsibly and indescriminately.





Re: Iranian Nuclear Weapons Challenges-a Serious L
socialized haircuts

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Message #51216 posted by socialized haircuts (Info) June 21, 2003 14:03:32 ET
In Reply to: Re: Iranian Nuclear Weapons Challenges-a Serious Look posted by Torog (Info) June 21, 2003 09:24:30 ET

"The only reason for Iran to posses nuclear deterrence-is because of Israel and the US-which ain't gonna work-cuz they can never defeat Israel and the US-in a nuclear war."

you have no chance of defeating the police or a militant group- so why do you bear arms?

Further, Everyone is defeated in a nuclear war. And actually, the reason for Iran to have a nuclear program is so that it can't be bossed around by the U.S and other neighboring countries.

The United States dropped the bomb when we knew the enemy didn't have on to retaliate with. Then, we dictated our policies to the rest of the world quite harshly for a few years until other countries acquired the bomb as well.

The United States has a nuclear stockpile (which btw, as you're probably aware, is enough to blow up the world 10x over) that makes us feel protected. Why should the citizens of any other country not be allowed that same blanket of security as us?

Don't get me wrong- I'd rather that no country has WMDs...
but put yourself in their shoes. Let's say the U.S and Iran switched places... Iran had thousands of WMDS and were building more, were the only country to ever have dropped a nuclear bomb, were trying to tell the US how to run its gov't, and then demanded that the US ended its nuclear program... you'd be mightily frightened. It's that same sort of fear that leads to anger that leads to terrorism.

I think you're seeing the world too much in black and white- the same problem these wacko muslims have. You see it as a battle of Good Vs. Evil, when in actuality it's just 2 shades of gray.






Re: Iranian Nuclear Weapons Challenges-a Serious Look
sara

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Message #51218 posted by sara (Info) June 21, 2003 17:13:29 ET
In Reply to: Iranian Nuclear Weapons Challenges-a Serious Look posted by Torog (Info) June 21, 2003 09:08:21 ET

Duh!!!the IAEA have already given iran a clean bill of health this week.Try just a wee bit harder next time...HE HE



Re: Iranian Nuclear Weapons Challenges-a Serious L
thekrackbaby

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Message #51222 posted by thekrackbaby (Info) June 21, 2003 18:03:09 ET
In Reply to: Re: Iranian Nuclear Weapons Challenges-a Serious L posted by socialized haircuts (Info) June 21, 2003 14:03:32 ET

Good response socialised. I can't believe torog thinks someone can "win" a nuclear war. Am I the only one who thinks America is just going to claim WMD about any country they don't like? Hell people in America don't even care if it's true.

South Koreans are more afraid of America than N korea.

I like how all these people are a threat to America. But most of the world sees america as the threat. America wants to be the only kid on the block with a bomb.

America thinks its system of government is the best in the world. All others are wrong, and these ignorant savages are being blessed by america forcing democrazy and the free market on them. America sees things like socialism as "un american". I see it as a way of not having massive ghettos. I don't see ghettos in England or Austrailia or Canada. There are poor people in these places but not the inner city horrors america has. Clean that shit up if you want to prove the american way is the best way.

You huys see the BBC poll on what the world thinks of America? Most people are not envious. Most of the world sees americans very different than you think. But i have seen the american response "we don't care what the world thinks". I won't point out the things the poll says about you, but everything i have said on this board over the past few years is repeated by thousands of other people.

America is frightingly religious. You travel out of america far less than other g-20 nations travel outside of their own countries. It's hard to respect the world view of many americans because so many don't know much about the rest of the world. Opinions of the world about americans

I realise there are occasionally enlightened, culturally sensitive, informed americans who are aware of the way the world sees them. But people like that are a minority. When most americans support a war, that most of the rest of the owrld opposes, something is wrong. More people need to step out of the american bubble, and look at your country the way the world sees you. Remeber that exporting your way of life is not a right, or a duty. Most places that have socialist policies prefer them. 90 per cent of Canadians prefer their system of government. Maybe you don't want subsidised health care, or university education, but don't assume your way of life is "the only right one" or even "the best".


Statistic :

60%
Percentage of American respondents who think other countries want to copy the way the U.S. runs its economy. However, only 23 per cent of non-American respondents said their country should run its economy like the U.S.

Why does America assume it the best system?

Here is the statistic:

89%
Percentage of American respondents who agreed with the statement that "America is the best country in the world in which to live." Ten per cent disagreed.

6%
Percentage of Canadian respondents who said the U.S. is a better place to live than Canada. Ninety per cent said it was not better than Canada.

heres more:

4 out of 5
Proportion of overall respondents (canadains) who said they would not like to live in the United States if given the chance.

3 out of 4
Proportion of American respondents who said they would not like to go live outside the U.S. if they had the chance. An overwhelming majority of American respondents (96 per cent) said people outside the U.S. want to come and live there.

more:

1 out of 3
Proportion of Canadian respondents who agreed with the statement "America scares me." Britain and Australia produced similar results.


This is the world's "good guy"??

The world is getting sick of a self appointed policeman of nations that decides 1 dictator is an friend (saudi arabia) and another is bad (iran or iraq). America dosen't get to decide who is in the nuclear club. These places do have a legitamate need for defence, against the USA. America isn't always the good guys like socialised points out, and more of the world is more afraid of you, then they are friends of you.

48%
Percentage of respondents in South Korea who say the U.S. is a bigger threat to world peace and stability than North Korea. Thirty-nine per cent said the opposite. Overall, respondents said the United States was more dangerous to world peace and stability than China, Russia, France, Iran and Syria. American respondents answered the opposite on all accounts.

America was also rated more dangerous than two countries considered as "rogue states" by Washington.

It was rated more dangerous than Iran, by people in Jordan, Indonesia, Russia, South Korea and Brazil, and more dangerous than Syria by respondents all the countries, except for Australia, Israel and the United States.

Countries polled
Australia
Canada
Brazil
France
Indonesia
Israel
Jordan
Russia
South Korea
United Kingdom
United States


It's damn hard to be world leader, when you don't care about what the world thinks.

Sorry for getting off topic.




Re: Iranian Nuclear Weapons Challenges-sara
Torog
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Message #51225 posted by Torog (Info) June 21, 2003 18:35:39 ET
In Reply to: Re: Iranian Nuclear Weapons Challenges-a Serious Look posted by sara (Info) June 21, 2003 17:13:29 ET


Just like the "International" team of weapons inspectors gave Iraq a clean bill ?

Git a clue lassie..anything that's "international" is always filled with folks working against American interests.





Re: Iranian Nuclear Weapons Challenges-a Serious L
Torog
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Message #51226 posted by Torog (Info) June 21, 2003 19:00:09 ET
In Reply to: Re: Iranian Nuclear Weapons Challenges-a Serious L posted by socialized haircuts (Info) June 21, 2003 14:03:32 ET


" you have no chance of defeating the police or a militant group- so why do you bear arms? "

I do have a chance-I'm a veteran and know alot more than you think about small-unit operations-I also have the in-alienable right to self-defense which I will never surrender to a faceless beaurocrat like your eager to do.

On top of that-is the 2nd amendment-which affirms my right to keep and bear arms.

The Russians would disagree with you on the survivability of a nuclear war-but they're kinda busy-building NBC shelters capable of housing 100,000 folks at a time-and deploying their latest generation of mobile,mirved,icbms-which they continue to build-as we speak. The Chinese,of course,are following a similar path.

The thing you're forgetting about the iranians-is that they are fundie muslims-they believe in an oppressive,brutal form of goverment-whereas America believes in democracy,freedom and equality-something that fundie muslims abhor-there's not as much to fear about democracy-as there is about fundie islam.

The world is lucky that America is the lone superpower-or would you rather be a communist or a muslim ?

This is a battle of Good vs Evil..clouding one's mind with various shades of gray-will only lead to defeat.

When ya dance with the Devil-ya git burnt




IranNukeWeaponChallenges/Earth To Torog
LeftyToker

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Message #51233 posted by LeftyToker (Info) June 22, 2003 01:21:50 ET
In Reply to: Re: Iranian Nuclear Weapons Challenges-a Serious L posted by Torog (Info) June 21, 2003 19:00:09 ET

..Sorry Torog..we are friends,,but I'm gonna have to be rude,,dont take it personally, unless you want to)?(

" The thing you're forgetting about the iranians-is that they are fundie muslims-they believe in an oppressive,brutal form of goverment-whereas America believes in democracy,freedom and equality-something that fundie muslims abhor-there's not as much to fear about democracy-as there is about fundie islam."

..Torog,,with all due respect,,You are talkin' like a Moron!..
. I'm sure that you are probably blind to the fact,,but do you realize that you are a FUNDIE christian?

"The world is lucky that America is the lone superpower-or would you rather be a communist or a muslim ?

This is a battle of Good vs Evil..clouding one's mind with various shades of gray-will only lead to defeat.

When ya dance with the Devil-ya git burnt"

..You are talkin' like a fuckin' idiot my friend!:

"....there's not as much to fear about democracy-as there is about fundie islam."

What?....unless you dont mind being called a moron,,you might want to try and explain what the fuck you are saying with such weirdass bullshit statements!?
.As far as I'm concerned..comparing Islam,and "democracy",,,is sorta like comparing a frog to an electric guitar)?(
.
.If you were Toroq Aziz,and your hometown was Baghdad,,you'd see things a bit differently.




Re: Iranian Nuclear Weapons Challenges-sara
sara

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Message #51236 posted by sara (Info) June 22, 2003 06:13:08 ET
In Reply to: Re: Iranian Nuclear Weapons Challenges-sara posted by Torog (Info) June 21, 2003 18:35:39 ET

Aye,just like the international team of weapons inspectors,gave iraq a clean bill of health,unless your privy to some kind of info that the rest of the fuckin world isnt.Lassie???? am stoppin being polite to you as of now fundie,lampposts.......



Re: IranNukeWeaponChallenges/Earth To Torog
Torog
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Message #51237 posted by Torog (Info) June 22, 2003 08:14:49 ET
In Reply to: IranNukeWeaponChallenges/Earth To Torog posted by LeftyToker (Info) June 22, 2003 01:21:50 ET


I thought my statements were pretty simple-we know that in terms of freedom and indivdual rights-democracy will always be better than an Islamic regime based on fundie values.

Wow..never thought of myself as a fundie Christian..I reckon I do sound like one at times-but I ain't gonna apologize for being Christian and having Christian values.

Unlike the koran-the Bible does not instruct Christians to deceive and eventually slay - those who refuse to believe in islam. There's hope-the young folks of iran have begun to realize that the koran is not the path to salvation-but instead- a path to oppression and destruction. If they can figure that out-why can't you ? Why do you continue to believe that fundie islam is preferrable to democracy ?

What's so hard to understand that I counsel against clouding one's mind with infinite shades of gray and what-ifs ? Keeping things simple-will often result in much quicker success-than if I waited until all possible permutations were worked out.

If you compromise your moral values by compromising with Evil and evil acts- Evil will take it's toll from you-because Evil always expects something in return. Thus the saying "When ya dance with the Devil-ya git burnt".

Your gonna have to pick sides-unless you decide to remain neutral-are you going to support democracy-or islam..?

When you speak out against America and democracy-you may as well be siding with all non-democratic goverments in my opinion.

I bet that you could find a muslim to talk to-there in Kalifornia-please do me a favor-ask them how many infidels have they slain ? If they say none-then ask them how can they be true to their faith-if they disregard the koran's commandment to slay infidels ? You probably won't git a straight answer-because the koran also instructs them to lie and to deceive infidels..until the moment to slay them-presents itself.

There's no need for me to consider the other pov-because I completely disagree with that form of goverment-there's no sad loss of freedom involved or the destruction of a democratic goverment-it's the end of a brutal regime-why would anyone not support that ? I do sympathize with the iraqis that want to live in peace however-1 year of occupation tho-is much better than another 40 or 50 years of a brutal dictatorship-isn't it ?

Do you think America should adopt a policy of isolationism ? Do you think the world would be just fine-if America just sits back and lets everyone fight for whatever they want to take ? Do you think that America should stop supporting and defending Israel-and let the arabs pursue their goal of driving the Jews into the sea ?

The middle east sits on vast reserves of oil-that's a strategic asset-it can and has been used-to affect the national strategic security and economy of nations in the free world-as long as the environazis have their way-America is reliant upon that source of oil-and as such-must act to protect the national strategic security of the US. But since we are good guys-there will be no permanent siezure of oil assets-instead-they will be returned to iraqi control.

You just need to be more patient-and have more faith that the American people will do what's right.







Re: Iranian Nuclear Weapons Challenges-sara
Torog
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Message #51238 posted by Torog (Info) June 22, 2003 08:30:50 ET
In Reply to: Re: Iranian Nuclear Weapons Challenges-sara posted by sara (Info) June 22, 2003 06:13:08 ET


The only info I know-is that weapons inspectors from countries other than the US-are not to be trusted and can be expected to be contrary to American security concerns.

I reckon calling you a lassie-is the same as calling you a girl-since you're an adult-I can see where that might be offensive-for that-I apologize sara.

What does "lampposts" mean in Scotland ? Do y'all hang Catholics and Protestants from lampposts..? Or is it just fundie Christians ?




Yawn..
DaBullz

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Message #51240 posted by DaBullz (Info) June 22, 2003 08:51:30 ET
In Reply to: Re: Iranian Nuclear Weapons Challenges-a Serious L posted by thekrackbaby (Info) June 21, 2003 18:03:09 ET

Wow.. so much b.s. so little time.. lets see where we can start..

"I see it as a way of not having massive ghettos. I don't see ghettos in England or Austrailia or Canada. There are poor people in these places but not the inner city horrors america has"

No ghettos in England.. wake up.. How about this? Open the borders and allow massive immigration. See what happens. Usually people who immigrate to America aren't educated, successful people. That is why they are leaving their country of origin. Denmark allowed Turkish workers in their country awhile back and now they have a Turkish ghetto. Plus, in America, the only reason one would live in a ghetto is because they are TOO LAZY TO FOOKIN WORK. My neighbor immigrated here from Mexico 25 years ago. Works 60 hours a week, owns a home now worth 300k and paid for, raised 5 kids and doesnt speak a lick of english.

"You travel out of america far less than other g-20 nations travel outside of their own countries. It's hard to respect the world view of many americans because so many don't know much about the rest of the world. Opinions of the world about americans"

I have travelled extensively, but I learn more about other cultures right here at home. You see, unlike your closed border country, I have every nationality, religious persuasion, race, creed, etc.. living with a few miles of me. If I want to eat authentic French food, I walk over to the bistro and Jean Paul, french expatriate, cooks the food. Costa Rican? Got a neighbor from there.. good people, great culture. Mexican? Puerto Rican? Russian? Polish? Korean? Swedish? Nigerian? I come across people from those countries every day of my life. Talk to them, enjoy their stories of their respective countries.. in the city I live in, 1 outta 5 people I see come from another country.

America is global.. the rest live in their insular little countries and pretend they are "tolerant" because they have travelled. Yet, they treat immigrants like 2nd class humans.

"6%
Percentage of Canadian respondents who said the U.S. is a better place to live than Canada. Ninety per cent said it was not better than Canada."

Geeze, how bizarre, people all over the world think their own country is the best.

"An overwhelming majority of American respondents (96 per cent) said people outside the U.S. want to come and live there."

We have 50 million immigrants.. its not hard to see why we think this way.

"It was rated more dangerous than Iran, by people in Jordan, Indonesia, Russia, South Korea and Brazil, and more dangerous than Syria by respondents all the countries, except for Australia, Israel and the United States."

This cracks me up. Does this prove that the respondents are smart? Fact of the matter is, the US is the most benevolent super power to ever grace this planet. Any other country in the past who have had close to our power used it to attempt world domination. We have defeated our enemies, and then freed them. Germany, Japan, South Korea, Mexico, etc... Other powers in the past would have made the conquered their indentured servants.

"The world is getting sick of a self appointed policeman of nations that decides 1 dictator is an friend (saudi arabia) and another is bad (iran or iraq)."

Quite frankly, the Americans are gettin equally sick. Sick of ensuring the most peaceful extended period of time this planet has ever seen, and then getting pissed on by morons like you.

I would love to become isolationist. Hows your arabic these days? Or chinese? You better polish up on both languages if America were to suddenly isolate herself.

Most of this blathering is penis envy by those who used to be relevant and now find themselves defenseless.

DB





Re: Yawn..
Anti War

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Message #51242 posted by Anti War (Info) June 22, 2003 09:21:21 ET
In Reply to: Yawn.. posted by DaBullz (Info) June 22, 2003 08:51:30 ET

This draws the line, I am done with politics...

We sell North Korea the material to build nukes, Israel and Russia sell Iran nuclear reactors and nuclear fuel...

Who cares...

Who cares...

Who cares...

Who cares if we sell other country's nukes, we have to go after them, they are so evil for having them...

This false reality is just to much...

We all have errors I have my own errors, but just seeing all these lies makes someone like me sick





Re: Yawn..
Anti War

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Message #51244 posted by Anti War (Info) June 22, 2003 09:25:33 ET
In Reply to: Re: Yawn.. posted by Anti War (Info) June 22, 2003 09:21:21 ET

In Liberalism every thing appears backwards...

And in Conservatism you have people taking Gods name in vain while worshipping Satan blindly, Most American Christians break every one of the Ten Commandments, big liars in a false reality....

Like I said I have my own errors, but this is so ridiculous it ain't funny




Re: Yawn..Yeehaawww ! Git em DaBullz !
Torog
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Message #51247 posted by Torog (Info) June 22, 2003 10:09:06 ET
In Reply to: Yawn.. posted by DaBullz (Info) June 22, 2003 08:51:30 ET


Well said...the fact is-America is the most benevolent superpower the world has ever known..we truly do have good intentions-we want to rebuild what we have destroyed-and replace it with even better things and hopefully a better life for everyone.

I realize the above statement should be accompanied with a barf alert for liberals-I'm sure it will cause some upset stomachs, and that it's somewhat simplistic in it's nature-but it still stands true.

Have a good one....Torog




Re: Yawn..Yeehaawww ! Git em DaBullz !
Red Eyed Craig

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Message #51249 posted by Red Eyed Craig (Info) June 22, 2003 10:27:27 ET
In Reply to: Re: Yawn..Yeehaawww ! Git em DaBullz ! posted by Torog (Info) June 22, 2003 10:09:06 ET

Personally, I think that mans worst discovery was the Nuclear Bomb. It's a shame that mans natural instict to be powerful and to destroy had to go that far...

It's a pity, I love life so much. Nuclear warfare scares the shit out of me...




Re: Yawn..
sara

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Message #51251 posted by sara (Info) June 22, 2003 11:53:35 ET
In Reply to: Yawn.. posted by DaBullz (Info) June 22, 2003 08:51:30 ET

ha ha ha nha ha ha ha ha !!!!!!!!! fukin bollocks,ha ha ha ha ha



Re: Yawn..
thekrackbaby

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Message #51254 posted by thekrackbaby (Info) June 22, 2003 15:22:27 ET
In Reply to: Yawn.. posted by DaBullz (Info) June 22, 2003 08:51:30 ET

Woo-hoo an ignorant stupid american!

No ghettos in England.. wake up..

I didn't see any south bronx in Brixton.

. Plus, in America, the only reason one would live in a ghetto is because they are TOO LAZY TO FOOKIN WORK.

No you need poor people to work at fast food joints and these ghettos supply the non whites to do it. Without an underclass you would have no one to do these jobs. You keep oppresing them too. Unless they can throw a ball, they don't go to university, thats only for the rich. Your lifestyle you owe to slaves. They built that country. You stole it from the indians. You stupid pigs think everyone has a chance, well they don't. Your token mexican friend is the exception. Racism is entrenched in america. The policies of your government means the upper class will always be white, and you can look down on those lazy non whites. You said it yourself, that ghetto residents are lazy. Since they are mostly of non white races, that makes you racist.


You see, unlike your closed border country, I have every nationality, religious persuasion, race, creed, etc.. living with a few miles of me.

You don't know where i live but having immigrants is nothing special. Haven't you started your flight to the suburbs ?


America is global.. the rest live in their insular little countries and pretend they are "tolerant" because they have travelled. Yet, they treat immigrants like 2nd class humans.


Yeah no sweat shops where i live. Real equal. Do you own any wetbacks? Go to any country in europe, they all have immigrants, but they aren't living in 3rd world conditions. Only the USA has this shit. And being ignorant about the world is nothing to be proud of.

Geeze, how bizarre, people all over the world think their own country is the best.


The rest of world dosen't stand around chest pounding and screaming god bless america. You aren't the best country in the world. You think the world envies you, but when asked most people do not. So quit your ignorance about the american way being best. No one envies you, or wishes they lived there, unless they happen to live in the 3rd world.
Most of the people in these other g-20 places are better educated than you, and do not want to live there.


Fact of the matter is, the US is the most benevolent super power to ever grace this planet.

Americans are ignorant about the rest of the world. You are also culturless, selfish, greedy, stupid, loud, arrogant, pushy, naive, spolied, rude, shallow, stupidly religious and so much more.



"The world is getting sick of a self appointed policeman of nations that decides 1 dictator is an friend (saudi arabia) and another is bad (iran or iraq)."


Quite frankly, the Americans are gettin equally sick. Sick of ensuring the most peaceful extended period of time this planet has ever seen, and then getting pissed on by morons like you.

Can't refute my point? President cowboy is having lunch with one dictator, and then claimns another is so bad that he must be toppled at the expense of baby killing. No one is asking for your help. You aren't welcome. You only invade when there is something to be gained. If you were having a war on dictators Saudi and indonesia would be ivaded. Except they are good for trading. Wow real benevolent. Keep trading with the evil leaders of the world.
You weren't being benevolant in your war on communism. You were scared they were right, and a threat to your selfish gas guzzling clear cutting lifestyle. They were "godless" for fucks sakes! It was another example of you pushing your idelogy on people who didn't want it.


I would love to become isolationist. Hows your arabic these days? Or chinese? You better polish up on both languages if America were to suddenly isolate herself.


America is a greater danger to world peace than the arabs or chinese.


You owe the world. Your fat burger eating lifestyle is paid for by exploiting 3rd world resources and labour.


Most of this blathering is penis envy by those who used to be relevant and now find themselves defenseless.


Military power is hardly anything to proud off today. One nuke is enough to ensure no one will invade. Your military comes at the expensive of social programs. I already pointed out that no one is jealous of amerikkunts. Did you not read that? Did you go to a public school or a white one? Thats why i hate americans more than any other reason. You are stupid. The whole world opposes a war, but stupid americans support it. Why? You know nothing about the world, you are completly ignorant about world affairs. So i find it hard to believe the more educated, cultured, and politically aware citizens of the world are wrong, and some dumb cowboys are right.

Now go buy your duct tape and plastic. And watch your trash on TV




Re: Yawn..
DaBullz

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Message #51255 posted by DaBullz (Info) June 22, 2003 16:12:26 ET
In Reply to: Re: Yawn.. posted by thekrackbaby (Info) June 22, 2003 15:22:27 ET

Lol.. A brit..

Gee.. lets review history shall we?

You ever hear the term "the sun never sets on the british empire"? All the English did was try and conquer the world. O, speakin of conquest and dominating a people, when you are the brits gonna stop occupying Northern Ireland?

Your time has come and gone.. stop bitching about your irrelevance and deal with it




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