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Obama on religion and politics

puffgeezer
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Message #173390 posted by puffgeezer (Info) March 16, 2008 21:15:10 ET

A friend of mine sent me this Obama (long) speech from 2006 that clarifies his views on the relationship of religion and politics, and may put the incendiary Reverend Wright connection into better perspective. Given that Obama seems at this point to be the probable next president, you might want to give it a listen. The guy can put together some powerful thoughts.

Puff

http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid463869411?bctid=416343938

Re: Obama on religion and politics

Dabullz

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Message #173397 posted by Dabullz (Info) March 16, 2008 23:13:04 ET
In Reply to: Obama on religion and politics posted by puffgeezer (Info) March 16, 2008 21:15:10 ET

Thanks Puff - great speech with great content. A couple of thoughts I had
during the speech that relate specifically to his reaching out to evangelicals
like myself.

"I myself believe that the duel between Christianity and atheism is the most
important in the world. I further believe that the struggle between
individualism and collectivism is the same struggle reproduced on another
level."

William Buckley - God and Man at Yale

Why does he believe this? Simple - look at every
socialist/communist/totalitarian country and a striking commonality becomes
extraordinarily apparent. Religion dies in such systems.

Name one socialist/communist/totalitarian country that has a vibrant culture
of faith? There are a couple, such as Cuba, but there is real correlation
between freedom and faith. Sweden, the "utopia" of socialism? 90% of the
folks are atheists.

It is refreshing to see that Obama understands, simply because he witnessed
the work being done, how powerful faith is in solving issues of poverty,
addiction, and tragedy.

Second thought as it relates to Scripture - Jesus, Paul, and other writers had
no use of government. They did not see government as the conduit in which
faith based works would flow, they saw that it was the concerned individuals
who would be the conduit in which issues of poverty and justice would be
addressed.

If anyone took the 40 minutes to listen to this, please take another 30-40 to
listen this speaker. He is the president and CEO of IJM.

http://www.ijm.org/

Link to the speech:

http://data.mppc.org/sermon/mp3/080302_ghaugen.mp3

Thanks again Puff - thought provoking stuff

DB

Re: Obama on religion and politics

Finger Hash

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Message #173399 posted by Finger Hash (Info) March 17, 2008 07:28:18 ET
In Reply to: Obama on religion and politics posted by puffgeezer (Info) March 16, 2008 21:15:10 ET

Hey Puff,

The clip takes too long to play on my computer. So then, I am not able to comment on it. Yesterday I was watching one of those Sunday morning political round table discussions and one of the commentators made an interesting observation.
Obama, as would be expected, is publicly denouncing the Reverend's comments. That is a smart political move. However, Obama said that he has never sat in one of the services of the church when his pastor made such racially charged comments. He, Obama, went on to say that if he had, he would've confronted the pastor on it after the sermon. Obama may have very well stepped knee deep in it by making such comments.
She, the political commentator went on to say that it can easily be checked to see if Obama is telling the truth on this. All they have to do is pour over videos of past services to check if Obama is in fact telling the truth or if lied. It would’ve been better for him, imho, to not have made such a statement. Finally, I think that Obama will weather the storm. However, this could come back to haunt him during the election. I have not yet mad up mind up between Hillary and Obama and who I will choose come November. They are so similar on their views and policies.

FH

Re: Obama on religion and politics

Higherminded
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Message #173402 posted by Higherminded (Info) March 17, 2008 07:43:41 ET
In Reply to: Obama on religion and politics posted by puffgeezer (Info) March 16, 2008 21:15:10 ET

All I can say is Viva Obama!!! I really do like how he is bringing a spiritual component into it.

Btw, the reason some may think Hillary and Obama are similar on views imo is that she just harvests what he says for her agenda. She ain't original. Just a robot that will devour whatever she can if she thinks it will get her the throne.

best wishes,
HM

Re: Obama on religion and politics

puffgeezer
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Message #173404 posted by puffgeezer (Info) March 17, 2008 10:45:09 ET
In Reply to: Re: Obama on religion and politics posted by Finger Hash (Info) March 17, 2008 07:28:18 ET

Finger Hash,

"The clip takes too long to play on my computer."

lol - yeah, it takes a long time on mine too.

It is a lengthy speech, especially in light of the sound-bite and 24 news cycle atmosphere we live in these days. I was glad I hung in, though, and I was struck by the depth and authenticity of Obama's thinking. IMO Hilliary nor McCain have the capacity or vision to create the same speech.

Hilliary and Obama's programs are similar, and are not much different than McCain's, but Hillary and McCain represent the past and the old guard. Throw the bums out. At least we'll have some new faces to complain about, and they can't do much worse.

Besides, now that I'm collecting SS and on Medicare, I'm beginning to think that income redistribution is a good thing. :-) All you folks working for a living, please work a little harder; I need the money.

Puff

Re: Obama on religion and politics

forged registration

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Message #173407 posted by forged registration (Info) March 17, 2008 13:24:30 ET
In Reply to: Re: Obama on religion and politics posted by puffgeezer (Info) March 17, 2008 10:45:09 ET

income redistribution kept canada's middle class growing while the middle class of other developed countries shrank...the majority of the federal government's budget goes to benefit the middle class...a country without a middle class is like a serfdom

Re: Obama on religion and politics

Shootist
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Message #173420 posted by Shootist (Info) March 17, 2008 22:29:46 ET
In Reply to: Obama on religion and politics posted by puffgeezer (Info) March 16, 2008 21:15:10 ET

I watched for 24 minutes. About then he mentioned needing moral people in D.C. to help raise the inheritance tax. I could stand it no longer.

Re: Obama on religion and politics

puffgeezer
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Message #173421 posted by puffgeezer (Info) March 17, 2008 22:57:28 ET
In Reply to: Re: Obama on religion and politics posted by Shootist (Info) March 17, 2008 22:29:46 ET

Shootist,

I have mixed feelings about the inheritance tax. Basically, I'm with you on the Libertarian view that the power to tax is the power to steal people's property. But then I think about the that the senior honchos of Bear Stearns that just went belly up because of gross mismanagement will probably collect the usual millions while about half of the 14,000 employees lose their jobs with some comparatively paltry severance package.

According to the IRS, the top 5% of America's earners make 35% of income and pay roughly 60% of taxes, but they also own about 2/3 of the nation's personal wealth. I'm beginning to think that the Buffett Solution may be a good alternative in this flawed world we live in. It's too late to repeal taxes or even to implement a flat tax; ain't gonna happen IMO.

Puff

Re: Obama on religion and politics

Dabullz

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Message #173423 posted by Dabullz (Info) March 17, 2008 23:48:57 ET
In Reply to: Re: Obama on religion and politics posted by puffgeezer (Info) March 17, 2008 22:57:28 ET

Ya - I felt myself nearly vomit at that point. The money I end up
saving/investing has already been taxed umpteen times by the time it
reaches
the next generation.

Class warriors need to travel to get the real truth - our poor are rich by the
standards found in most of the world.

DB

View 173423.jpg

Re: Obama on religion and politics

puffgeezer
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Message #173425 posted by puffgeezer (Info) March 18, 2008 10:25:33 ET
In Reply to: Re: Obama on religion and politics posted by Dabullz (Info) March 17, 2008 23:48:57 ET

DB/Shootist,

I'm quite conflicted about all this. If there were a level playing field, I'd be far less inclined to support increased taxes for the rich (or anyone), but it isn't a level playing field, in part because of the tax system already in place which favors the Golden Class.

For example, the outrageous salaries and bonuses being collected, especially by failed senior execs, is one of the most destructive elements of our culture. The obscene levels of compensation breed contempt, cynicism, and loss of confidence in the system by the large majority of citizens. The extraordinary levels of compensation are determined not by just the free market, but largely by mutual back scratching. Competent execs would be lined up for senior management positions at a fraction of the compensation being paid these days.

All else being equal, I'd say let the rich be richer, but all else isn't equal, and we have to start from where we are, not from where we would like it to be. If we're going to condone legal theft via the tax system, we at least need to have some honor among thieves. It is immoral, IMO, to let the current system remain intact.

With that said, we'll not solve our social and fiscal ills by simply throwing more money at them which tends to make our problems more severe and entrenched. The current system spawns a destructive dependence on government and loss of personal responsibility. The best path will likely be a compromise rather than rigid adherence to a given set of political principles. Transcending the increasing polarization is our only salvation, which is why Obama's mindset is resonating with me.

So educate me, show me the errors of my thinking, and help me resolve some of the conflict I feel about all this.

Puff

Re: Obama on religion and politics

Dabullz

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Message #173426 posted by Dabullz (Info) March 18, 2008 11:28:53 ET
In Reply to: Re: Obama on religion and politics posted by puffgeezer (Info) March 18, 2008 10:25:33 ET

Puff, obviously Shoot, if he chooses to do so, will provide a far more
insightful, erudite, specific and overall cogent answer than I, the bastard! ;)~

I will take a few of your arguments and counter them with the dull edge of
my understanding.

The tax system does not favor the Golden Class. The Golden Class already
funds the entire federal government. You and I have traded statistics
regarding this reality. The top 5% of income earners pay 50% of the total tax
burden, the top 15% pay 85%, and the bottom 50% pay only 5%.

Mind you, many of these folks aren't already wealthy i.e. physicians who
finish residency with $200,000 of medical school loans pay the same
percentage of their income than a CEO of Kraft. I would gather that a
majority of those who are in the 5% have an overall negative net worth if you
factor in a mortgage.

You make an argument regarding the outrageous salaries/bonuses of CEOs
and other higher management folks. You also suggest many others would do
the same job for much less. I would argue that you are making a fallacious
assumption that successfully managing a massive corporation is somehow
possible for many folks. If that were the case, then the compensation, in our
free market, would be far less. There are very sound reasons why a CEO
might make $50,000,000 per year in salary and bonuses while the janitor of
my children's school makes $16,000 per year.

Very, very few people have the ability to run a Fortune 500 company. Hence,
the compensation level. We see this in every industry. Tiger Woods made
$80,000,000 last year. Only he is skilled enough to demand such pay in his
field. The examples of abuse that you use are indeed disgusting, yet, I
believe that this is the exception rather than the rule.

You also suggest that the level field isn't even. I argue quite the opposite if
you are talking about the larger "systems" of our society. For instance, in my
son's 2nd grade class, any one of those kids have the same opportunity to
become a CEO, Senator, Physician as any other. The Clintons, both of them,
came from lower middle class backgrounds and have risen to the greatest
heights. As has Mr. Obama.

The biggest determinant, IMO, the one that the gubbyment can't change, is
the family. The little orphan in the picture I posted - think about him - put
him in a functioning family that values education, and guess what? He will
be successful.

I appreciate that Mr. Obama has surely shown the ability to speak of
transcending this and that. Speaking and doing are 2 very different animals -
he has shown very little ability to actually do any transcending and has been
slowly exposed for what he really is - a far left ideologist.

Re: Obama on religion and politics

puffgeezer
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Message #173427 posted by puffgeezer (Info) March 18, 2008 12:43:25 ET
In Reply to: Re: Obama on religion and politics posted by Dabullz (Info) March 18, 2008 11:28:53 ET

DB,

I'm not arguing that the majority of CEOs and other top execs of the Fortune 1000 don't possess special abilities. But I've worked for a couple and have completed assignments for several more when I was on my own, and there is no shortage of others at lower levels who could do at least as well at running the business for far less compensation.

There are many senior execs whose ignorance and management incompetence might astound you. One of the CEOs I worked with was one. He was fired from two successive CEO positions for cause and then retired with 10s of millions from both companies to give him solace. Nice guy by the way.

People in the business world frequently do rise to their level of incompetence as the classic Peter Principle states.

I agree that the state of American families is at the root of many of our ills. And, like recovery from alcoholism, the road to a better place is fundamentally a spiritual one.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

Puff

rentier class and equality

forged registration

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Message #173428 posted by forged registration (Info) March 18, 2008 14:09:35 ET
In Reply to: Re: Obama on religion and politics posted by puffgeezer (Info) March 18, 2008 12:43:25 ET

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/may2004/nf20040521_5601_db013.htm

Against the American Aristocracy
The U.S. has made strides in narrowing the gap between rich and poor. Eliminating the estate tax would be a big backward step

Equality has long been a central value in American society. The 19th century social philosopher Alexis de Toqueville emphasized equality of conditions. Capitalist theorist Milton Friedman wrote eloquently about equality of opportunity. Political commentator Mickey Kaus emphasized equality of civic space.

Yet, America has long been a society with an unequal distribution of income and wealth. An academic cottage industry has grown up studying the rise in income inequality over the past few decades. Although the figures can be cut in different ways, researchers broadly agree that the gap between the rich and poor has grown since the 1970s. The concentration of wealth has been remarkably stable in recent decades, however, despite the go-go years of the dot-com boom and the legions of newly minted zillionaires.

That could change if the Bush Administration gets its way and permanently eliminates the estate tax. Call it the revenge of the rentier class.

NOT AS BAD. The existing estate tax is deeply flawed, crying out for reform. But instead of eliminating the tax, it would be far easier to reduce the amount that is exempt so that only the most rarified have to take the tax into consideration. It's bad public policy to actively encourage the creation of an aristocracy of privilege and inherited wealth, especially in a high-tech, integrated global economy that values meritocracy, entrepreneurship, and human capital.

Although inequality still exists in the American system, it's not as bad as it used to be. The top 1%, although a small fraction of the population, used to hold almost 40% of the nation's household wealth. That's according to a recent study "Top Wealth Shares in the United States, 1916-2000: Evidence from Estate Tax Returns," by Wojciech Kopczuk of Columbia University and Emmanuel Saez of the University of California.

The early part of the study focuses on the opulent era when the wealthy heirs of Vanderbilt, Astor, Peabody, Duke, and others summered in mansions in Newport and socialites put on ostentatious balls in New York. The rentier class portrayed by Edith Warton in The House of Mirth scorned the newly rich. Horrors, they made money in business.

MORE STOCK PLAYERS. Wealth is far less concentrated today. Kopczuk and Saez say the figure for the amount of the nation's wealth held by the richest 1% has been fluctuating between 20% and 25% over the last three decades. Here's an alternative measure to capture the same dynamic. America's richest man in 1918 was John D. Rockefeller who owned 0.54% of the nation's total net worth. In sharp comparison, at the peak of the stock market boom in 2000 it took the combined fortunes of Bill Gates, Larry Ellison, Paul Allen, and one-third of Warren Buffett to equal 0.52% of net worth, according to the scholars.

What happened? The big transformation in the concentration of wealth in America came from the economic shocks of 1929 to 1945: The Great Depression, the New Deal, and the Second World War II. The rentier class has never managed to reconstitute its preeminent economic position over the last half century. The authors argue the two most important factors behind that failure were the progressive income tax and estate taxes.

The authors also highlight the democratization of stock market ownership in recent years. The top 1% of individuals no longer holds a significantly larger fraction of their wealth in stocks compared to the average person in the U.S. economy with a 401(k) plan and a college savings account.

Of course, the progressive income tax system is under assault as tax law increasingly favors capital at the expense of labor. The elimination of the estate tax would only worsen the situation. Henry Simon, the University of Chicago economist and proponent of a progressive income tax system, memorably remarked that extreme inequality is "unlovely." Equality of opportunity is too important a concept to sacrifice to the whims of the rentier.

Re: Obama on religion and politics

The Sage
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Message #173429 posted by The Sage (Info) March 18, 2008 19:25:00 ET
In Reply to: Re: Obama on religion and politics posted by puffgeezer (Info) March 18, 2008 12:43:25 ET

"There are many senior execs whose ignorance and management incompetence might astound you."

I don't know how you determine who should be taxed for ignorance and mis-management. If you go the route of taxing the wealthy, you have to hit all of them.

It almost makes me glad I'm not wealthy.

Peace, Sage

Re: Obama on religion and politics

puffgeezer
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Message #173432 posted by puffgeezer (Info) March 18, 2008 20:04:35 ET
In Reply to: Re: Obama on religion and politics posted by The Sage (Info) March 18, 2008 19:25:00 ET

Sage,

"I don't know how you determine who should be taxed for ignorance and mismanagement"

I think we've gone down a tangential path. I'm not suggesting that tax rates be based on competence, but only responding to DB that not everyone who is a senior exec is by definition competent and worthy of the exorbitant incomes they're many times paid. I agree that fairness requires that any incremental taxes for the wealthy be applied across the board.

IMO, the wisest direction is to drastically cut federal government expenditures and involvement in the lives of Americans. But that isn't in the cards, at least in this election, and you gotta play with the cards you're dealt. The reality is that we have huge obligations for SS and especially Medicare that have to be paid for.

Benefits could be cut and undoubtedly will to some extent, but there would be a revolt if the reductions were even close to sufficient to balancing the books. Government could simply print or borrow more money (the preferred solution so far), but we would eventually pay the piper through higher inflation which in effect is a tax on everyone. And inflation is a regressive "tax" and especially harsh for lower income brackets where the cost of living is a much higher proportion of income compared to the wealthy.

I don't like any of the choices.

Puff

Re: Obama on religion and politics

Shootist
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Message #173433 posted by Shootist (Info) March 18, 2008 22:17:04 ET
In Reply to: Re: Obama on religion and politics posted by Dabullz (Info) March 18, 2008 11:28:53 ET

Thanks for the compliment, bullz.

The truly wealthy, <1%, or those whose assets are greater than $6 or $7 million a year, do not pay inheritance tax. They have enough wealth that they can put in trust so as to become untouchable by government.

The Inheritance Tax that is most irksome applies to those whose net worth is between $600,000 and 5 or 6 million. These people are typically small business owners, including physicians, surgeons, lawyers and farmers. In these cases, much of their net worth is in real estate (a home, homes or the family farm). The families usually have to sell the properties to pay the tax. That is intolerable.

Re: Obama on religion and politics

Higherminded
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Message #173436 posted by Higherminded (Info) March 19, 2008 00:09:13 ET
In Reply to: Re: Obama on religion and politics posted by puffgeezer (Info) March 18, 2008 10:25:33 ET

Viva Puff!
best wishes,
HM

View 173436.jpg

Re: Obama on religion and politics

mrblues
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Message #173440 posted by mrblues (Info) March 19, 2008 10:43:26 ET
In Reply to: Re: Obama on religion and politics posted by Higherminded (Info) March 19, 2008 00:09:13 ET

Think Gold mine.
Gold mine owners at top of mine.
Everybody else down the shaft.

peace

Re: Obama on religion and politics

Shootist
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Message #173446 posted by Shootist (Info) March 19, 2008 19:47:23 ET
In Reply to: Re: Obama on religion and politics posted by mrblues (Info) March 19, 2008 10:43:26 ET

"Think Gold mine.
Gold mine owners at top of mine.
Everybody else down the shaft."

Envy is a sin, it clouds the mind and makes the sufferer a target for
manipulation by those who wish power.

Re: Obama on religion and politics

Higherminded
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Message #173448 posted by Higherminded (Info) March 19, 2008 20:16:44 ET
In Reply to: Re: Obama on religion and politics posted by Shootist (Info) March 19, 2008 19:47:23 ET

Why are you interjecting emotionalism into this Shootist? I think that particular metaphor of Mr. B's describes the reality of the power structure in this country quite well. You don't have to envy something in order to be able to categorize it correctly.
best wishes,
HM

Democracy is the road to socialism -
KM

Re: Obama on religion and politics

Dabullz

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Message #173450 posted by Dabullz (Info) March 19, 2008 21:29:05 ET
In Reply to: Re: Obama on religion and politics posted by Higherminded (Info) March 19, 2008 20:16:44 ET

Name one government system that isn't a proverbial "gold mine"?

"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others"

A few facts to consider...

- 30,000 children died TODAY due to starvation-only counts kids under 5
- 3,000,000,000 live on less than 2 dollars a day. Half the world's people.
- 1,000,000,000 folks living right now have never had a clean glass of water
- 2,000,000,000 live without electricity
- 3,000,000,000 live without sanitation

In light of these very real facts, those of you on a computer, in a home, with
electricity, toilet nearby, faucet pumping unlimited amounts of clean water,
refrigerator packed with food, hvac system, soft bed, closets filled, plentiful
employment opportunities, plentiful educational opportunities, the worlds
best medical care and on and on and on...

You ARE wealthy whether you want to believe it or not. We ALL sit on the top
of the gold mine. So what if some sit higher - get over it - most of them
earned it the old fashioned way.

DB

Re: Obama on religion and politics

Higherminded
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Message #173451 posted by Higherminded (Info) March 19, 2008 21:40:20 ET
In Reply to: Re: Obama on religion and politics posted by Dabullz (Info) March 19, 2008 21:29:05 ET

DB you use this argument that since we don't wipe our asses with leaves anymore everything is great. I agree, we have it better than the rest of the world for the most part. But just cuz my neighbor shits on his lawn doesn't mean I can't ask for fair pay etc. There is still room for improvement, Charmin tissue or otherwise. And what on earth do you mean by the old fashioned way? Cheating and lying? Cuz alot of the folks that i have seen in the power seat got there the "old fashioned way".
http://blogcritics.org/archives/2007/04/02/063814.php
best wishes,
HM

Re: Obama on religion and politics

Higherminded
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Message #173452 posted by Higherminded (Info) March 19, 2008 21:50:18 ET
In Reply to: Re: Obama on religion and politics posted by Higherminded (Info) March 19, 2008 21:40:20 ET

More good ole days:
http://www.corporatecrimereporter.com/top100.html
Now back to survivor, where rich american folks starve themselves in a beach paradise for alot of money.
best wishes,
HM

Re: Obama on religion and politics

Dabullz

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Message #173453 posted by Dabullz (Info) March 19, 2008 22:01:40 ET
In Reply to: Re: Obama on religion and politics posted by Higherminded (Info) March 19, 2008 21:40:20 ET

The argument is very valid. Capitalism and free markets have pulled everyone
up. The problem with some folks is that it is never enough. So long as someone
has more than them, it is "wrong" somehow.

Shootist was right on the money. Envy is sin.

The only thing obscene in America is the amount of opportunity we all have to
improve our lot.

Done here - thanks for the debate.

Re: Obama on religion and politics

Higherminded
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Message #173454 posted by Higherminded (Info) March 19, 2008 22:22:43 ET
In Reply to: Re: Obama on religion and politics posted by Dabullz (Info) March 19, 2008 22:01:40 ET

Never enough? It's a capitalist society, or do I have that wrong? Or are you arguing for socialism now?

I never said it was wrong that someone has more than me, your suggesting it. I was talking about corruption. I am not the entitlist you are trying to refer that I am in. But thanks for the shitty suggestion, shows character...

I have worked for everything I have gotten and never cheated a day of it, I can guarantee you that.

Yeah your right DB this debate IS over. I was looking for interesting banter, you either can't handle it or just wanna be right. Even if that means insulting somebody, passively aggressively I might add.

No thanks.

Re: Obama on religion and politics

Dabullz

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Message #173455 posted by Dabullz (Info) March 19, 2008 23:06:20 ET
In Reply to: Re: Obama on religion and politics posted by Higherminded (Info) March 19, 2008 22:22:43 ET

"I never said it was wrong that someone has more than me, your suggesting
it. I was talking about corruption."

I never suggested that you were arguing for entitlement - my posts were
related to the "Gold Mine" post of Mr. Blues. I have no doubt that you have
earned your way - its hard to make it in the US otherwise.

I don't care about being right or wrong - I care about being free. Again, I am
sorry for offending you. It seems I can't avoid it!

DB

Re: Obama on religion and politics

puffgeezer
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Message #173457 posted by puffgeezer (Info) March 20, 2008 00:52:52 ET
In Reply to: Re: Obama on religion and politics posted by Shootist (Info) March 19, 2008 19:47:23 ET

Shootist,

"Envy is a sin."

As is greed, which drives a lot of people to pursue and achieve wealth and power. Most of the corruption that abounds in America has its roots in this transgression.

Puff

Re: Obama on religion and politics

mrblues
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Message #173460 posted by mrblues (Info) March 20, 2008 08:54:21 ET
In Reply to: Re: Obama on religion and politics posted by puffgeezer (Info) March 20, 2008 00:52:52 ET

"Envy is a sin, it clouds the mind and makes the sufferer a target for
manipulation by those who wish power."

Not about "Envy"

peace

Re: Obama on religion and politics

Shootist
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Message #173467 posted by Shootist (Info) March 20, 2008 21:00:10 ET
In Reply to: Re: Obama on religion and politics posted by mrblues (Info) March 20, 2008 08:54:21 ET

All about wanting what other people have. What else could it be, "fairness"?

Re: Obama on religion and politics

mrblues
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Message #173498 posted by mrblues (Info) March 22, 2008 07:23:32 ET
In Reply to: Re: Obama on religion and politics posted by Shootist (Info) March 20, 2008 21:00:10 ET

unfair distribution of wealth

peace

Re: Obama on religion and politics

mrblues
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Message #173499 posted by mrblues (Info) March 22, 2008 07:26:23 ET
In Reply to: Re: Obama on religion and politics posted by mrblues (Info) March 22, 2008 07:23:32 ET

Shootist:
We are close to the same age. I remember raising a family in the 70s and 80s on basically one income---- produce manager at supermarket. House, car, 4 kids, insane wife.

Understand now?

peace

Re: Obama on religion and politics

Shootist
Premier Member

Registered on
Dec-09-2001
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Message #173548 posted by Shootist (Info) March 23, 2008 17:48:34 ET
In Reply to: Re: Obama on religion and politics posted by mrblues (Info) March 22, 2008 07:26:23 ET

mrblues:

I understand what you're saying. I believe a goodly portion of the second income goes to pay for government services, fees and taxes. Not just federal, but state and local, and not all are very visible, excise taxes, licenses, auto-tags, toll roads and a host of others. Another point to consider is all the products that are considered necessary that weren't widely available in 1980. Cell phones, cable TV, computers, Internet access, I'm sure there are others.

Now, estimate all your taxes, tolls and license (drivers, tag, boat, etc.) fees and cut them by 1/3 to 1/2, then add up how much you spend on products you didn't have in 1980. Just cutting cable, internet and cell phone would save me $210 a month. No small change.

How much more money do you have in your pocket?

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