NORML - Reform Marijuana Laws

[ Boardview ]   [ Threadview ]   [ Quickview ]   [ Topics ]   [ Help ]

happy easter

bum Premier Member Registered on Mar-04-2001 More User Info Message #173531 posted by bum (Info) March 23, 2008 13:13:02 ET i find it extremely ironic that a holiday in honor of such a compassionate and loving man is celebrated with massive abuse to living creatures. please, please find a different way of celebrating jesus' resurrection-- give money to a charity or a church... anything but eggs...

View 173531.jpg

Re: happy easter

puffgeezer Premier Member Registered on Apr-19-2002 More User Info Message #173532 posted by puffgeezer (Info) March 23, 2008 14:13:57 ET In Reply to: happy easter posted by bum (Info) March 23, 2008 13:13:02 ET Geez, bum, Happy Easter to you too. I was expecting your post to be something inspirational and in the spirit of the day which is more your style. While we're at it, why don't we focus on the plight of the newt, the tragedy of abandoned dogs and cats, the decline of honey bees, and the loss of prairie grasses. I think you need a hug. Anyway, peace and the best of the holiday wishes to you and yours. Puff For what it's worth, I'm not having chicken today. :-)

View 173532.jpg

Re: happy easter

bum Premier Member Registered on Mar-04-2001 More User Info Message #173533 posted by bum (Info) March 23, 2008 14:53:31 ET In Reply to: Re: happy easter posted by puffgeezer (Info) March 23, 2008 14:13:57 ET thanks puff... maybe i should have approached it from an inspirational POV. oh well. bait and switch is pretty effective too LOL i think those plights you mention are much less dire. i'd rather see a free, starved dog, or a species be wiped out, than see billions of chickens raised like they are in factory farms. it's absolutely horrific and if you don't need a hug after seeing what goes on, you have been separated from yourself.

Re: happy easter

forged registration Registered on Dec-17-2005 More User Info Message #173535 posted by forged registration (Info) March 23, 2008 15:12:56 ET In Reply to: Re: happy easter posted by bum (Info) March 23, 2008 14:53:31 ET how do you feel about free range chickens? i think most of today's easter eggs are sugar frosted chocolate bombs anyway...what kind of kid wants to play with someone that fell out of a chicken's bottom? i think the lent season ended this morning...i remember that being a great party time

Re: happy easter

bum Premier Member Registered on Mar-04-2001 More User Info Message #173537 posted by bum (Info) March 23, 2008 15:48:13 ET In Reply to: Re: happy easter posted by forged registration (Info) March 23, 2008 15:12:56 ET i feel bad for free-range chickens. it's a misnomer... there are no regulations/inspections for free-range labeled eggs, only free- range chicken meat. (and for that label, they only need access to the outdoors-- doesn't matter how large the door is, how large the outdoor space is, no regulation on bird limit in a single shed). either way, the broiler chickens used today grow nearly twice as fast as they did in the 1950's leading to fucked up legs and hearts.. the breed is fucked up more than dogs are these days. http://youtube.com/watch?v=Z7Gbq3lkKwY “Free-Range” Eggs There is no inspection system for companies that label their eggs “free- range.” The popular myth that “free-range” egg-laying hens enjoy fresh grass, bask in the sunlight, scratch the earth, sit on their nests, and engage in other natural habits is often just that: a myth. In many commercial “free-range” egg farms, hens are crowded inside windowless sheds with little more than a single, narrow exit leading to an enclosure, too small to accommodate all of the birds at once. Both battery cage and “free-range” egg hatcheries kill all male chicks shortly after birth. Since male chicks cannot lay eggs and are different breeds than those chickens raised for meat, they are of no use to the egg industry. Standard killing methods, even among “free-range” producers, include grinding male chicks alive or throwing them into trash bags and leaving them to suffocate. Whether kept in sheds or cages, laying hens—who can naturally live more than ten years—are considered “spent” when they are just one or two years old and their productivity wanes. Rather than being retired, “free-range” hens are slaughtered to make room for another shed of birds. With no federal regulations overseeing the use of animal welfare claims on egg cartons, misleading or exaggerated claims are rampant. Consumers may be deceived by phrases such as “animal-friendly” or “naturally-raised,” which can be found on cartons of eggs from caged hens. Read about COK’s truth in labeling campaign urging the U.S. Food and Drug Administration to require the full disclosure of production methods on eggs cartons sold nationwide. http://www.cok.net/lit/freerange.php there's more info about free-range chicken meat there, too.

Re: happy easter

forged registration Registered on Dec-17-2005 More User Info Message #173543 posted by forged registration (Info) March 23, 2008 16:26:07 ET In Reply to: Re: happy easter posted by bum (Info) March 23, 2008 15:48:13 ET free range means something in canada...my local humane society recommends free range eggs as part of their 'chicken out' campaign that successfully convinced two BC municipalities (including my city) and a university to switch to free range eggs only at their city-run food service outlets here is an example of the legal regulations: http://www.canlii.org/ns/laws/regu/2005r.11/20061123/whole.html "free range chicken" means any variety of chicken that (i) is raised on a feed ration consisting solely of grains, vegetable oil and necessary vitamins and minerals and containing no traces of rendered meat products, fish meal, antibiotics or other medication of any kind, including growth promoters, (ii) has regular access to fresh air, sun, soil and green forage, and (iii) will be processed by a federally or Provincially inspected processor; Special licence to produce free range chicken 17 (1) A special licence issued to produce free range chicken must state (a) the producer’s name; (b) the licensing period; (c) the number of chicken licensed to be produced. Facility inspection (2) Before issuing a special licence to produce free range chicken, the Commodity Board may visit, examine, measure and photograph the producer’s facilities to ensure they conform with the definition of free range chicken. ************************************************************** "Battery cages represent one of the worst forms of animal cruelty in our society, but the problem is also one of the easiest to fix. If you buy eggs, choose cage-free options such as certified organic, free-range or free-run." - Bruce Passmore, Vancouver Humane Society, Coordinator of the "Chicken Out" campaign

Re: happy easter

bum Premier Member Registered on Mar-04-2001 More User Info Message #173544 posted by bum (Info) March 23, 2008 16:51:06 ET In Reply to: Re: happy easter posted by forged registration (Info) March 23, 2008 16:26:07 ET that's great canada has regulations for the free-range label on eggs.. and also that fresh air, sun, soil, and green forage is included-- but what about size regulations? there is still the same problem as the broiler chickens..

Re: happy easter

Damndrugtest Registered on Sep-12-2003 More User Info Message #173545 posted by Damndrugtest (Info) March 23, 2008 16:56:36 ET In Reply to: Re: happy easter posted by forged registration (Info) March 23, 2008 16:26:07 ET Like Puff, I was expecting something different when I clicked on this thread than what I found. But hey that's just the internet. I didn't think a "Happy Easter" thread would be so depressing. But who among us hasn't dipped a Mcnugget in sauce without so much as a thought to the chicken that had to be sacrificed so that we could supersize. LOL, but than I think if that chicken could eat me he probably would. So I guess I'll get over it. DDT

Re: happy easter

Higherminded Premier Member Registered on Mar-02-2002 More User Info Message #173546 posted by Higherminded (Info) March 23, 2008 17:08:15 ET In Reply to: Re: happy easter posted by Damndrugtest (Info) March 23, 2008 16:56:36 ET little did bum or forged realize as they bitterly fought for the rights of fowl on both sides of the border, that the poultry had decided to start an uprising of their own.... http://youtube.com/watch?v=kw_nTOMXFuQ&feature=related best wishes, HM

Re: happy easter

olderhippie Premier Member Registered on Jan-07-2002 More User Info Message #173547 posted by olderhippie (Info) March 23, 2008 17:48:27 ET In Reply to: Re: happy easter posted by Higherminded (Info) March 23, 2008 17:08:15 ET Peeps on the pole........... Happy Easter !!!

View 173547.jpg

Re: happy easter

bum Premier Member Registered on Mar-04-2001 More User Info Message #173549 posted by bum (Info) March 23, 2008 18:28:18 ET In Reply to: Re: happy easter posted by Damndrugtest (Info) March 23, 2008 16:56:36 ET i think the question is not if the chicken would eat you DDT, but would it breed you 'til you grew to 200+ lbs as a 3 year old (yes, that's near the equivalent) and cram you in a cage with 4 other humans so you couldn't even raise an arm-- not to mention you have to walk on wire caging your entire life.

Re: happy easter

Wirikuta Premier Member Registered on Jun-08-2001 More User Info Message #173554 posted by Wirikuta (Info) March 23, 2008 21:27:46 ET In Reply to: Re: happy easter posted by bum (Info) March 23, 2008 18:28:18 ET I like chicken breast cordon bleu. I hope they slaughter my chicken while having an orgasm (the chicken, not me) happy Easter!!!! peace, Wirikuta

Re: happy easter

forged registration Registered on Dec-17-2005 More User Info Message #173555 posted by forged registration (Info) March 23, 2008 21:52:50 ET In Reply to: Re: happy easter posted by bum (Info) March 23, 2008 16:51:06 ET hey bum i accidentally misrepresented the situation here...after looking into it, i discovered that free range chickens are covered by regulation but not free range eggs...organic eggs are audited and verified in canada, but not free range eggs...it is possible for free range eggs to be cage eggs, but the local humane society apparently has enough confidence in the egg industry to recommend free range as well as organic...that might have something to do with the fact that the humane society is selling endorsements for some brands of free range eggs (not that there is anything wrong with that) what is the size regulation issue? free range and organic chicken breasts tend to be smaller than the factory farm chicken breasts in my neighbourhood, but i feel safer eating unmedicated, vegetarian chickens

Re: happy easter

Dabullz Registered on Apr-14-2003 More User Info Message #173556 posted by Dabullz (Info) March 23, 2008 22:18:00 ET In Reply to: Re: happy easter posted by bum (Info) March 23, 2008 18:28:18 ET "i think the question is not if the chicken would eat you DDT, but would it breed you 'til you grew to 200+ lbs as a 3 year old (yes, that's near the equivalent) and cram you in a cage with 4 other humans so you couldn't even raise an arm-- not to mention you have to walk on wire caging your entire life." I think here lies the problem, bum. Not everyone equates a bird with a human as you do. Happy Easter all!

Re: happy easter

bum Premier Member Registered on Mar-04-2001 More User Info Message #173557 posted by bum (Info) March 23, 2008 22:58:50 ET In Reply to: Re: happy easter posted by Dabullz (Info) March 23, 2008 22:18:00 ET that's preposterous. you can't really believe that i equate the two! that analogy, of course, isn't perfect because of the vast difference between human and animal, but we certainly share many traits. i think the bottom line is YOU CAN'T BREED ANIMALS INTO MUTANTS THAT GROW SO QUICKLY THEY CAN'T STAND AND THEN KEEP THESE LIVING CREATURES WHO HAVE THRIVED OUTDOORS IN THEIR NATURAL HABITAT FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS LOCKED UP IN A FUCKING WIRE CAGE FOR THEIR ENTIRE LIVES WITHOUT ROOM TO MOVE PILED IN WITH HOWEVER MANY OTHER BIRDS WHO ARE SO STRESSED THEY PECK AT EACH OTHERS FACES AND LOSE THEIR FEATHERS, THEN STARVE THEM WHEN THEIR CASH PRODUCTION SLOWS TO PRODUCE MORE. humans are very far from birds, but that has nothing to do with their capacity to suffer. to allow this to happen is really fucked. it's really fucked. it's fucking disgusting.

Re: happy easter

bum Premier Member Registered on Mar-04-2001 More User Info Message #173558 posted by bum (Info) March 23, 2008 23:04:54 ET In Reply to: Re: happy easter posted by forged registration (Info) March 23, 2008 21:52:50 ET forgot to answer your Q forged... first, i didn't mention it but i think it's very interesting that free-range chickens have to be unmed./veg... seems that would only be a requirement for perhaps organic... second, the size regulation issue is the fact that yes it says they have to have access to the outdoors, but it doesn't give any regulations as to the size of the space, meaning it's open to exploitation. what's to prevent you from having a 10 sq. ft. patch of grass for a 2000 bird coup? if free-range is designed to give some semblance of a life back to chickens, it needs to actually do that instead of pretending....

Re: happy easter

Dabullz Registered on Apr-14-2003 More User Info Message #173561 posted by Dabullz (Info) March 23, 2008 23:19:25 ET In Reply to: Re: happy easter posted by bum (Info) March 23, 2008 22:58:50 ET Your passion is obvious and consistent - however, I will worry 'bout birds after the human condition improves. Millions of people live in worse conditions than those birds, and due to their very sophisticated nervous/emotional/spiritual development, they feel the suffering exponentially more than the birds. How many human lives could be radically altered if the folks who worry about birds/swine/cattle would take their time/money/focus and direct it towards improving humanity? Thousands per year? Hundreds of thousands? Perhaps millions? DB

Re: happy easter

Dabullz Registered on Apr-14-2003 More User Info Message #173563 posted by Dabullz (Info) March 23, 2008 23:48:16 ET In Reply to: Re: happy easter posted by Dabullz (Info) March 23, 2008 23:19:25 ET 30,000 people died today due to starvation - 85% of them children under the age of 5. It would appear the problem isn't the fact that there exists factory farms, its that there aren't enough of them.

Re: happy easter

bum Premier Member Registered on Mar-04-2001 More User Info Message #173564 posted by bum (Info) March 24, 2008 00:02:19 ET In Reply to: Re: happy easter posted by Dabullz (Info) March 23, 2008 23:19:25 ET "however, I will worry 'bout birds after the human condition improves." if i was going to devote any time to ending something, it would be human suffering. the only time i devote to helping suffering of living people/animals is thought and reading-- i don't buy animal products because of animal suffering, but i also don't buy nike or bananas because of human suffering. it's a passive protest, a boycott. there's no reason why i can't do both. my question is, why would you need to wait until you've improved human suffering to make a simple diet change?

BBQ Chicken

Finger Hash Registered on Jul-15-2001 More User Info Message #173565 posted by Finger Hash (Info) March 24, 2008 00:13:18 ET In Reply to: Re: happy easter posted by bum (Info) March 24, 2008 00:02:19 ET yum!

Re: happy easter

bum Premier Member Registered on Mar-04-2001 More User Info Message #173566 posted by bum (Info) March 24, 2008 00:14:45 ET In Reply to: Re: happy easter posted by Dabullz (Info) March 23, 2008 23:48:16 ET "It would appear the problem isn't the fact that there exists factory farms, its that there aren't enough of them." do you realize how much edible food is wasted in the US? nearly 100 billion pounds a year. but sure, let's make more animals suffer. good idea.

Re: happy easter

Dabullz Registered on Apr-14-2003 More User Info Message #173568 posted by Dabullz (Info) March 24, 2008 07:26:53 ET In Reply to: Re: happy easter posted by bum (Info) March 24, 2008 00:02:19 ET "my question is, why would you need to wait until you've improved human suffering to make a simple diet change? " Pretty simple - I am a biological omnivore, can't change it, and I don't care about chickens until they hit my plate and palate. If the recommendations that you prescribe for animals were actually implemented, the cost for food, not just meat, but veggies too, would further skyrocket causing even more human misery. Your passion, intellect, and compassion will be powerfully used once you focus them a little higher up the food chain. You can and will change the course of many folks lives for the better! DB

Re: happy easter

infertile Registered on Jan-17-2008 More User Info Message #173571 posted by infertile (Info) March 24, 2008 10:08:53 ET In Reply to: Re: happy easter posted by Dabullz (Info) March 24, 2008 07:26:53 ET It is even more funny or interesting to consider that both eggs and bunnies are holdovers from the pre-christian celebration and have nothing to do with the biblical narrative. and both are mighty tasty now having worked for an animal welfare organization, I am well acquainted with the sorry plight of the egg hen, and believe we would all be more morally and emotionally whole if we had to take more responsibility for the things we eat by raising and slaughtering ourselves, but it just doesn't fit, realistically or practically with our living patterns. and surely, no beast has it worst than the factory farm raised pig, although the veal calf is in close contention. I still find them all delicious, sad to say, even knowing what I know about their miserable lives. I must be some sort of monster.

Re: happy easter

bum Premier Member Registered on Mar-04-2001 More User Info Message #173572 posted by bum (Info) March 24, 2008 11:58:24 ET In Reply to: Re: happy easter posted by infertile (Info) March 24, 2008 10:08:53 ET DB, i think you've missed the point of the question... you said you'd worry about birds after the human condition improves... working upon that premise, wouldn't it make sense that you can do both at the same time considering a diet change is a simple matter that requires little time? "If the recommendations that you prescribe for animals were actually implemented, the cost for food, not just meat, but veggies too, would further skyrocket causing even more human misery." i see your reasoning and i don't disagree with it DB, human suffering is more important than animal suffering. again, i agree, but again, you don't seem to desire to entertain any idea of a way around it. there are plenty of ways to prevent starvation right now that aren't being made use of, so i don't believe animal torture in the name of food to eat is a valid argument. anyway, yes, the cause of meat would rise... but why would veggies? and thank you for your prediction, i hope it comes true.

Re: happy easter

bum Premier Member Registered on Mar-04-2001 More User Info Message #173573 posted by bum (Info) March 24, 2008 11:59:52 ET In Reply to: Re: happy easter posted by infertile (Info) March 24, 2008 10:08:53 ET "but it just doesn't fit, realistically or practically with our living patterns." no, it doesn't, but neither did the abolishment of slavery. (and please god don't think i'm saying factory farms are equal to human slavery- i'm speaking only of injustice and convenience.) ps, how come you say a pig is worse than a veal calf? i'm curious.. seemed to me that veal had it worse off-- and where do foie gras ducks lie on your scale?

Re: happy easter

Dabullz Registered on Apr-14-2003 More User Info Message #173574 posted by Dabullz (Info) March 24, 2008 13:36:05 ET In Reply to: Re: happy easter posted by bum (Info) March 24, 2008 11:58:24 ET I don't mean to be hard-headed, bum, my focus, as far as what I give my time/money/energy towards has been directed towards humanity, whether it be mentoring inner city youths in my twenties or finding ways to impact the lives of Kenyans in a small or substantive way nowadays. I have seen hunger with my eyes, witnessed the despair and desperation that parents deal with being unable to provide for their children. Hearing about it and seeing it are very, very different. My first time in Kibera I was broken by 3 huge stomach punch moments. First, the poverty - its devastating to see hungry children milling around garbage piles filled with not only trash but feces. Second is hope - seeing a literal army of mostly, don't mean to be political or religious here, but its simply a fact, christian folks serving the hungry/broken/hurting. Third is the power of a single dollar. I could feed 3 children for a day for 3 dollars or I could spend an extra 3 dollars on a free range chicken? Easy choice for me. http://www.satellite- sightseer.com/id/11552/Kenya//Nairobi/Kibera__worlds_largest_slum Sorry for the broken link - copy and paste will work - but that is Kibera. One million folks live there in conditions that aren't really different than the chickens you mention. To the north of the slum, you will see a golf course - put a "factory farm" or 2 on that land and thousands of children a year would avoid one of the most painful, dreadful deaths imaginable - the slow descent of starvation. http://www.allroadsleadtokibera.com/ - a video should pop when you open this link. It should give you a general idea of the conditions up close. In reference to your question regarding my diet, I do very much watch what I eat and actually eat very little meat. I have Christian friends who "religiously" (yuk yuk) follow what is called the "Garden of Eden" diet on the premise that Adam and Eve ate only veggies/nuts/plants. Most of the food they eat is raw -I think they cook only 15% of the food they eat. The one gentlemen was someone who I played basketball with regularly and now is 50+ and looks like he is in his late thirties. Great shape and I am sure his heart health is great. I promise I will give it some thought, talk to my wife who is essentially a vegetarian until I start the BBQ and slap some pork on it. Then she turns into a starving cave woman ravishing every last morsel on every last rib! What I most appreciate about you, Bum, over the years, is your obvious drive, how you truly "go after" what you believe in. Very powerful, very rare, and very much in need in the realm of human misery. Real quick on the veggie cost issue - factory farms are what they are so farmers can have many animals in a small location. Around here, they then use/lease the remaining land for the growth of veggies. Land would get swallowed up if the animals were to roam as the opponents of factory farms would desire. Hence the price pressure of diminished land supply - already a reality due to the absurd notion of using food for fuel as is happening in the corn belt around here. DB DB

Re: happy easter

infertile Registered on Jan-17-2008 More User Info Message #173575 posted by infertile (Info) March 24, 2008 14:21:59 ET In Reply to: Re: happy easter posted by bum (Info) March 24, 2008 11:59:52 ET Hey bum the reason I say it does not fit practically or reasonably is that most of us live in places where the raising of any meat livestock, even small ones like chickens, rabbits, or pigeons, is forbidden by local ordinances and custom. The slaughter of our own meat would require facilities most of us don't possess, blood gutters, serious cutting boards, serious knives and saws. Further, it requires skills for which there are few teachers - you don't want to mingle fecal matter with your fresh meat, I for one, don't really know how to properly skin my skinnables or pluck my birds. I think pigs have it worse mainly because there are so many more of them suffering than veal calves. And they tend to suffer longer than veal calves, and many states have banned the veal crate. Sure the foie gras goose is in a bad state, too, but i see few people considering that their avian brains transmit anywhere near the complexity of pain signals which are reckoned to mammal, especially advanced mammals like pigs. You are advancing a position on either/both ethics or religious grounds. you reckon that the pain of a laying hen is a thing that ought to be considered. Because it ought to be considered you don't eat eggs and think we shouldn't - here is where I think you cross the line from ethics to religion, because you project your consciousness onto us. I see a general movement towards recognizing and reducing animal suffering. It is laudable, but it isn't a big issue for me. When I work for animal welfare folks, i help them frame their message in a way that will have more impact. Politically, these guys are smart. They want to take whatever wins they can get. That is why horse slaughter legislation advances. Are horses more deserving of protection based on their intelligence or their pain? Not really, but we think they are a lot more noble than pigs. Gradually, the agenda of the animal welfare people, who are actually animal rights people and activist vegans, will advance. That is ok, I make some pretty good vegan dishes, too. But my religion is somewhere else and it abides suffering. and pork, foie gras (and most other livers) and veal area delicious. Eggs too.

Re: happy easter

forged registration Registered on Dec-17-2005 More User Info Message #173578 posted by forged registration (Info) March 24, 2008 15:12:35 ET In Reply to: Re: happy easter posted by bum (Info) March 23, 2008 23:04:54 ET the free range unmedicated/vegetarian requirement caused a problem when it came out because it temporarily wiped out the definition of organic chicken/eggs which became unavailable for a while (that was the explanation posted in my local butcher's window) i saw a couple news reports about the free run/range chicken industry...it is very crowded, and some operations still debeak the chickens, but chickens are social, and do not appear to suffer in cramped quarters as long as they can move around...they don't experience the same level of stress, feather loss, fighting, disease, etc so it is a major improvement over tiny cages...free run/range chickens are also less vulnerable to avian flu it is somewhat ethical to let animals be animals before we brutally slaughter and eat them but it would be cost ineffective to replicate a wild animal experience for domesticated, specially bred, walking entrees...chickens that can move around, and interact with other chickens in a large heated room with bedding are getting a good deal even if it is crowded, and i don't feel guilty about eating them or their eggs

Re: happy easter

bum Premier Member Registered on Mar-04-2001 More User Info Message #173582 posted by bum (Info) March 24, 2008 17:23:27 ET In Reply to: Re: happy easter posted by Dabullz (Info) March 24, 2008 13:36:05 ET thanks for your posts DB i watched that video.. it's really sad. i'd like to hear more about what you do over there. i think you posted something a while ago... thanks for your encouragement DB. although i don't know how good i really am. i can't seem to reconcile the fact that there are billions of people and animals suffering, and all i do is read and watch where i spend my money. that is like 1% of the resources i could dedicate. to just sit here and go about my life is extremely selfish. i don't know much about what would happen to veggie prices if factory farms turned into free-range farms, but i'm sure mankind could come up with a solution.

Re: happy easter

puffgeezer Premier Member Registered on Apr-19-2002 More User Info Message #173584 posted by puffgeezer (Info) March 24, 2008 18:19:56 ET In Reply to: Re: happy easter posted by infertile (Info) March 24, 2008 14:21:59 ET infertile, Thanks for your well considered posts. I agree with you most of the time, and you know the old adage that if you want to feel good, talk with someone you agree with, but talk with someone who disagrees with you. But your posts are a bonus, because I usually learn something or get a different perspective on things too. Puff

Re: happy easter

puffgeezer Premier Member Registered on Apr-19-2002 More User Info Message #173585 posted by puffgeezer (Info) March 24, 2008 18:21:21 ET In Reply to: Re: happy easter posted by bum (Info) March 24, 2008 17:23:27 ET bum, I applaud your concern for other living things and your commitment to your cause. You've heightened my sensitivity to the issues you've raised, and I'm glad there are people like you trying to make the world a better place. The challenge in these kind of situations, I think, is how to convert emotional energy into effective action. Progress always involves creating the most good with finite resources, not the least of which is simply time. Limit animal suffering? - of course. Limit animal suffering at any cost? - that's not a choice I support. Puff

Re: happy easter

bum Premier Member Registered on Mar-04-2001 More User Info Message #173586 posted by bum (Info) March 24, 2008 19:10:14 ET In Reply to: Re: happy easter posted by infertile (Info) March 24, 2008 14:21:59 ET my bad infertile-- i didn't think you were referring to slaughtering our own meat. on that note, i agree completely, it's very impractical. i was thinking the practicality of changing our culture to exclude animal abuse. which of course isn't practical either but as i said, neither was slavery, which was the foundation of much of our culture hundreds of years ago. "here is where I think you cross the line from ethics to religion, because you project your consciousness onto us." i don't see how you're drawing the conclusion that because i don't think you should support a fucked up industry i've crossed the line into religion ? this has nothing to do with metaphysics. if it's because you think i'm pushing my ideas on you, i don't think i am. we're all friends here and i'm only bringing this stuff up because i think i'm right in my opinion that it's an unethical industry, and so then we argue about it. i think this, you think that, we argue. that's it. all i can do is hope. if a company does something you think is horrific, and all your friends give them money, how would you treat the situation differently than i have?

Re: happy easter

bum Premier Member Registered on Mar-04-2001 More User Info Message #173587 posted by bum (Info) March 24, 2008 19:18:35 ET In Reply to: Re: happy easter posted by forged registration (Info) March 24, 2008 15:12:35 ET forged, from what i've learned i don't think debeaking is a big deal as long as it's done properly. the real problem is why they're being debeaked. ' i agree though, it's not necessary to provide a wild animal experience-- i don't imagine the chickens care much, but i do believe it's necessary to provide an avenue for chickens to behave as they naturally would. i think maybe i believe that to prevent an animal from exhibiting most of it's natural behavior is unethical.

Re: happy easter

bum Premier Member Registered on Mar-04-2001 More User Info Message #173588 posted by bum (Info) March 24, 2008 19:35:08 ET In Reply to: Re: happy easter posted by puffgeezer (Info) March 24, 2008 18:21:21 ET thanks puff :D good to see you. i'm glad i've done something you appreciate! "The challenge in these kind of situations, I think, is how to convert emotional energy into effective action." i agree- for some people, like my sister, all it takes is a glimpse into what's going on through a video and then they give it up after crying. for others, like myself, i have to actually intellectualize it or else i'll keep doing it because i'm a cold-blooded hunter meat-eater type. for example, i don't have any problem with eating meat if it is for sure going to waste-- while some folks can't even eat fake meat. and for others, it's just a matter of time before they feel strongly enough to make a large change in their diet. "Limit animal suffering at any cost?" i agree with you of course. but i think most people are pretty selfish when asked to make a sacrifice for something they think is right. myself included. i do many things i don't believe i should do, all out of convenience and selfishness.

Re: happy easter

bum Premier Member Registered on Mar-04-2001 More User Info Message #173589 posted by bum (Info) March 24, 2008 19:36:39 ET In Reply to: Re: happy easter posted by bum (Info) March 24, 2008 19:10:14 ET you can only change once the change is more valuable to you than staying the same. so if you really believe in something, and you're like me, you have to either think it through, or feel it strong enough, to the point where you've imbued the cause with more value than you give to meat. and so it is.

Re: happy easter

The Sage Premier Member Registered on May-24-2002 More User Info Message #173590 posted by The Sage (Info) March 24, 2008 19:43:01 ET In Reply to: Re: happy easter posted by bum (Info) March 24, 2008 19:18:35 ET God bless ya, Bum, for your diligence with this issue. You have raised some well-considered concerns about which, I'm sure, folks will be discussing for quite some time. I like eggs. I like chicken. I don't want to worry too much about which came first, I just want to eat regularly, and I really like meat and eggs with an occasional fruit or vegetable. Were I ever the one to be eaten, my attitude would, quite likely, be different. Peace, Sage

Re: happy easter

infertile Registered on Jan-17-2008 More User Info Message #173591 posted by infertile (Info) March 24, 2008 19:47:38 ET In Reply to: Re: happy easter posted by bum (Info) March 24, 2008 19:10:14 ET hey bum, I may have taken what you were saying father than you meant, it sometimes works that way with people you don't get to talk to face to face. I often wish we could all do the huterite thing. they take personal responsibility by each cycling through the slaughter duties for their whole community. it isn't just an industry. It is a whole delivery system to bring low cost food (and higher cost food, too) to masses whose numbers are growing at a difficult to imagine rate. Food industries are under more pressure to reduce costs than to reduce cruelty or animal suffering. food is the adjective that goes with company - and companies are everywhere shortcutting and scrimping and still under pressure to do more, often at the detriment of consumers. but still, as the big bad wolf says in the disney cartoons: little pigs is good to eat. and thanks for the notice, puff =)

Re: happy easter

bum Premier Member Registered on Mar-04-2001 More User Info Message #173592 posted by bum (Info) March 24, 2008 19:58:58 ET In Reply to: Re: happy easter posted by infertile (Info) March 24, 2008 19:47:38 ET i think i've heard about that slaughter rotation in the 'omnivore's dilemma'... perhaps it's from the bible? the author suggests that it's so nobody is desensitied by the slaughter. "Food industries are under more pressure to reduce costs than to reduce cruelty or animal suffering." that's what it comes down to-- $$$$$$$$$ -- same thing happened/is happening with slavery, deforestation, small companies, pollution, human exploitation, etc.

Re: happy easter

forged registration Registered on Dec-17-2005 More User Info Message #173593 posted by forged registration (Info) March 24, 2008 20:56:50 ET In Reply to: Re: happy easter posted by bum (Info) March 24, 2008 19:18:35 ET yeah i agree bum...animals should get a chance to be animals even if it was totally our decision to bring them into existence for food about ten years ago, my best friend lived out in farm country across the road from a veal operation and i haven't tasted veal since them...it was dreadful when i was in elementary school, i snuck into a commercial egg laying operation...it was a traumatic experience...i had no idea that food was produced like that (at the time i felt worse about eating anything coming out of that madhouse than for the things living in the madhouse)...those animals were treated like bugs...the egg mcmuffins get better conditions! when i was seven or eight years old, i went to an old fashioned farm with our family doctor where the animals lived in great conditions...i helped pick out the best pig, and the farmer shot him on the spot (once to bring him down and another to finish him off after a great deal of struggling and squealing)...i had no idea that was going to happen...my mum had recently finished reading 'charlotte's web' to me too...we watched the pig being gutted, and then rode home with him in the trunk of the car...meat is cruel, even at a nice family farm...it's upsetting but more satisfying than brocolli salad and lentil beans

Re: happy easter

Higherminded Premier Member Registered on Mar-02-2002 More User Info Message #173594 posted by Higherminded (Info) March 24, 2008 22:54:03 ET In Reply to: Re: happy easter posted by forged registration (Info) March 24, 2008 20:56:50 ET I raised chickens, three of them and a rooster. They could roam an acre of land and had a coup. I can honestly tell you that they showed no ounce of gratitude. The rooster was so mean it broke one of the chicken's necks trying to screw it. Not to justify cruelty but from my experience and aa a sidenote, they are pretty dumb. I have no trouble believing they descended from dinosaurs. Imo, it's a consumption and a human population issue, but too serious for me right now. Anyway, probably over the top pic wise but I couldn't resist. best wishes, HM ps bum, your jesus, or whatever, can look anyway you want, as can mine Jesus for the Heart Buddha for the Mind

View 173594.jpg

Re: happy easter

puffgeezer Premier Member Registered on Apr-19-2002 More User Info Message #173595 posted by puffgeezer (Info) March 25, 2008 00:10:27 ET In Reply to: Re: happy easter posted by forged registration (Info) March 24, 2008 20:56:50 ET forged, Your farm story brought back to great memories for me. Some of my favorite times growing up were spending time on my aunt and uncle's farm. They had a small farm of about 4,500 acres, and it was a beautiful and wondrous place for a small town kid. White house, big oak trees, red barn and outbuildings, corn, soy bean and hay crops, tractors, trucks, plows, and rich black soil. My brother and I loved to visit and for a few summers, we stayed for several weeks, which was especially cool because of my cousins with whom I'm still close. My aunt (still kicking at 95) is a wonderful, kind woman, and I recall how freaked I was when one day she grabbed a chicken from the coop, whacked its head off with a big knife, and dropped it on the ground to run around in a big circle shooting blood until it fell dead. The fried chicken and all the fixin's she prepared was a thing of dreams. Couldn't wait to visit again and witness the surreal show and enjoy the feast. She was a true hard working farm woman and could handle a tractor with the best of 'em. But beyond that, I've been involved in about every kind of farm situation you can imagine, including birth of animals, slaughtering, castrating, euthanasia, and vet operations. Planting, harvesting, milking cows, shearing sheep, hauling corn to the local elevator, cleaning stalls, scooping up manure, 4-H fairs, baling hay, etc. were all part of it. I treasure the experience and feel blessed to have had the opportunity and such good, loving relatives. I'm sure all this has influenced my attitudes about animal suffering and killing animals for food. My aunt and uncle were humane with their animals and took good care of them. They also didn't give a second thought about slitting their throats when the time came because it was a natural and healthy part of an abundant life. I'd like to do it all over again. Puff

Re: happy easter

Higherminded Premier Member Registered on Mar-02-2002 More User Info Message #173599 posted by Higherminded (Info) March 25, 2008 22:01:36 ET In Reply to: Re: happy easter posted by Higherminded (Info) March 24, 2008 22:54:03 ET btw the kfc pic wasn't meant to offend anyone. Intended only as *possible* comedic material. No harm was done to any chickens while surfing for that pic. best wishes, HM

Re: happy easter

bum Premier Member Registered on Mar-04-2001 More User Info Message #173602 posted by bum (Info) March 26, 2008 00:34:34 ET In Reply to: Re: happy easter posted by puffgeezer (Info) March 25, 2008 00:10:27 ET "I'm sure all this has influenced my attitudes about animal suffering and killing animals for food. My aunt and uncle were humane with their animals and took good care of them. They also didn't give a second thought about slitting their throats when the time came because it was a natural and healthy part of an abundant life." this would be the only appropriate way to kill animals IMO. i still think eating meat is entirely avoidable so i think it's unethical to kill an animal to please the stomach.. BUT, i'm sure many animals live wonderful lives on some farms, and to die at the hand of a skilled life-taker after a good life is surely better than a death by predator in the wild.

Re: happy easter

bum Premier Member Registered on Mar-04-2001 More User Info Message #173603 posted by bum (Info) March 26, 2008 00:38:23 ET In Reply to: Re: happy easter posted by Higherminded (Info) March 25, 2008 22:01:36 ET your KFC pic as well as how a lot of people like to interject their favorite chicken dish can only be funny if it flies in the face of someone who cares.

Re: happy easter

bum Premier Member Registered on Mar-04-2001 More User Info Message #173604 posted by bum (Info) March 26, 2008 00:39:50 ET In Reply to: Re: happy easter posted by Higherminded (Info) March 25, 2008 22:01:36 ET or perhaps not only someone who cares, because i know some of you do care but still choose to eat it for whatever reason.

Re: happy easter

bum Premier Member Registered on Mar-04-2001 More User Info Message #173605 posted by bum (Info) March 26, 2008 00:42:53 ET In Reply to: Re: happy easter posted by puffgeezer (Info) March 25, 2008 00:10:27 ET "They also didn't give a second thought about slitting their throats when the time came because it was a natural and healthy part of an abundant life." what is natural and healthy about taking an animal's life to make your favorite plate of food? this animal is just hanging out doing its thing and you decide you can stop it, and take it's life with a knife because you like how it tastes?

Re: happy easter

bum Premier Member Registered on Mar-04-2001 More User Info Message #173606 posted by bum (Info) March 26, 2008 00:45:55 ET In Reply to: Re: happy easter posted by Higherminded (Info) March 24, 2008 22:54:03 ET HM, "The rooster was so mean it broke one of the chicken's necks trying to screw it." i don't know if this applies to those birds, but some breed of chicken's roosters accidentally had it's mating dance bred out-- farmers started seeing ripped up hens. apparently some farmers thought it was a common thing for a rooster to do... but apparently the rooster wouldn't do the mating dance so the hen wouldn't get a signal for mating, and the rooster would just mount it but the chicken would just be confused and run, then the rooster would get pissed and fuck it up.

Re: happy easter

Dabullz Registered on Apr-14-2003 More User Info Message #173608 posted by Dabullz (Info) March 26, 2008 07:44:25 ET In Reply to: Re: happy easter posted by bum (Info) March 26, 2008 00:42:53 ET Bum, dude, think about your argument as it flies in the face of every and all natural, evolutionary reality. The food chain, brother, the food chain. Animals kill and eat animals every day. I am an animal. I eat animals. The natural world, evolution, all of it, is "cruel" in the sense you speak although I would ask you where your idea of "cruel" finds its origin. DB

Re: happy easter

Dabullz Registered on Apr-14-2003 More User Info Message #173609 posted by Dabullz (Info) March 26, 2008 08:09:01 ET In Reply to: Re: happy easter posted by bum (Info) March 26, 2008 00:42:53 ET Bum, dude, think about your argument as it flies in the face of every and all natural, evolutionary reality. The food chain, brother, the food chain. Animals kill and eat animals every day. I am an animal. I eat animals. The natural world, evolution, all of it, is "cruel" in the sense you speak although I would ask you where your idea of "cruel" finds its origin. DB

Re: happy easter

infertile Registered on Jan-17-2008 More User Info Message #173610 posted by infertile (Info) March 26, 2008 10:01:59 ET In Reply to: Re: happy easter posted by Dabullz (Info) March 26, 2008 08:09:01 ET I'd say there is a lot healthy about personally taking an animal's life in order to eat it, I think I made that point before. It is healthier to take responsibility. It is healthier to choose a healthy animal, rather than a sick or dying one - and you can only tell that if you see it, rather than taking whatever the meat packer put in the bag. It is healthier to take control over what an animal you are going to eat eats, rather than accept the witches brew of antibiotics, waste, grain enriched with used fat, growth hormones and other items that are unseen but harmful further downstream when we eat them second hand. But my county ordinances prevent me from raising animals for slaughter, whether chickens, rabbits, pigeons, or any of the other small animals my grandparents regularly kept in their Atlanta neighborhoods. And this is reasonable too, because keeping enough chickens to feed my family would create a real load of stink and filth, not to mention providing a crack of dawn alarm clock for the whole neighborhood whgere we are built 8 to an acre. It can be a good ethical and health choice to adopt a balanced vegan or vegetarian diet. When you choose to personally not create the demand for products whose production includes the cruelty and pain of which you are aware, you shift your contributions to the vast universal economic enterprise to products at least moderately less harmful - probably. When my buddhist friend throws parties, he always makes us aware of what he would like us to bring. Only vegan dishes, no whites (white sugar, rice, flour) and I have to tell you he took it a lot better when a rag along fellow brought a bucket of KFC than you have taken it when someone showed a picture. You are getting close or even into righteous mode - I can tell because i do it myself - I forget that there are other worthy issues, that people can and do devote their attention to. I forget that most people can only give strong energy and effort to a couple of issues, and that they get to choose them. Ethical vegetarianism is not mainstream - it is certainly growing, and most people don't think an ethical vegetarian is a looney wierdo, but omnivorous eating is mainstream. You aren't the only frustrated missionary.

Re: happy easter

puffgeezer Premier Member Registered on Apr-19-2002 More User Info Message #173611 posted by puffgeezer (Info) March 26, 2008 10:31:54 ET In Reply to: Re: happy easter posted by bum (Info) March 26, 2008 00:42:53 ET bum, "what is natural and healthy about taking an animal's life to make your favorite plate of food? " We've had this conversation before, but you're putting forth a value judgment about where along the hierarchy of animal is it ok to extinguish the life of one of God's creatures. As you go lower and lower down the chain, I suspect at some point you would agree that it's OK (killing ants that have taken over your home, bacteria that are infecting your child's cut, rats that are getting into your trash, etc.). These are perhaps extreme examples, but they frame the question of where between these examples and killing animals for food do you draw the line? It's ok to kill rats, but not pigs, cows or chickens? To use your phrasing rats are just hanging out doing its thing". We could, of course, take impractical and prohibitively costly measures to avoid killing them so it's not a matter of "necessity." So where do you draw the line? You must have one or your life would be tied up in knots just trying to avoid stepping on ants, or living with hornets under your eaves. They're just hanging out doing their thing. You might say the difference is because killing animals for food is different than killing for practical, convenience, or other reasons. Not sure I see any difference other than personal values but maybe you can enlighten me. Taking a life is killing regardless of the reason. The common ground perhaps is killing humanely and the rest is personal choice, IMO. Oh, I misspoke as Hillary would say about the size of my uncle's farm. His own farm was about 1,200 acres, and he cooperatively farmed about 4,500 acres of land along with his brother and father-in-law who also had farms nearby. They shared equipment and helped each other during harvest and other peak times which is one of the ways they survived economically. Ultimately, though, their farms and most other small farmers have been swallowed up by the conglomerates who enjoy significant economies of scale. I think if you grew up on a farm, you would feel differently. My aunt and uncle would have likely just chuckled and considered you a squeamish "city kid" and told you to go slop the hogs and collect the eggs if you wanted dinner. :-) P